my turn

[Bill Carlsen]

I have had expeeriences with close range shots and heart shots as well. I shot a small buck once at a distance of 3 yards on the ground. I was shooting a 67# longbow, chundoo shafts with Hunters Heads. The arrow did not pass thru but I got both lungs and no blood trail. Next morning I found the deer but was surprised by the angle the shaft entered/exited (I did get an exit wound). What I surmised was that the arrow was still in paradox when it hit the animal and that is why it did not zip thru the deer....it hadn't straightened out yet.

I killed a 10 point whiteail several years ago and a moose last year with heart shots. Both were shot with multiblade heads...the whitetail with a Phantom and the moose with a Razorcap. Neither animal left a blood trail. Both went down in sight....the buck about 40 yards and the moose after 3 steps. I did some research and surmised that the best explanation for the lack of a blood trail was due to the fact that when the heart is damaged like that it simply stops working. In other words no pump to push the blood out. Hit an artery leaving the heart and blood will be everywhere.

Ray: I shot an 8 pointer the same year I shot the 10 mentioned above. I got both lungs with a four blade Phantom. The arrow hit the off shoulder so I had no exit wound. There was good blood until the arrow fell out. The deer went over 400 yards. I would agree with you that double lung deer do not go far but this one is an exception and I am at a loss to explain the reason  Here's a link to the buck where I found him. The wound you see is the entrance and the arrow was angled foward....a perfect double lung shot, extremely sharp bh......go figure?????

  http://s14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/Arrowworks/?action=view¤t=eightpointbuck05.jpg

[Sharpster]

Originally posted by wingnut:
Do you think that a trama to the heart sometimes stops it dead?  It's the only answer I have come up with.  The heart stops and so does blood flow except for gravity.

Good shot and great recovery!!

Mike

Great thought Mike. Not sure if you're right or not but, if there was little blood on the ground and the pics show far less in the body cavity than I'd have expected, then where did all the blood go... or did it not go anywhere as you suggested?

Ron

[Bill Carlsen]

Shapster: I can't say it for the moose because we  had to skin and quarter it to get it out....but the ten pointer I heart shot seemed to have a lot more blood drain out when I got it home and hung it up than other deer I have shot. Last week I made a poor shot that defelcted and hit the deer in the juglar vein/ carotid artery. The blood trail was immense although very short. When I got it home to hang it there was very little blood to drain out....almost none and barely a few smudges in the bed of my truck.  My best guess on heart shot animals is that the blood stops pumping, the animal looses blood pressure and oxygen to the brain, it collapses and dies and the blood remaining in the animal simply stays in the veins, arteries and capillaries until gravity does its work.

[Jason Jelinek]

I wonder if a large hole in the heart prevents the heart from having the suction (pressure differential) to push blood into the arteries and pull it from the veins.  The heart still probably pumps, but can't move any blood.  The body uses up all the oxygen in the arteries and then dies.

Jason

[Sharpster]

Hey Bill,

How ya been? I think you and I posted within a couple seconds of each other the first time. I think that both you and Mike may be on to something here.

Brian says no blood trail and I certainly believe him, but his pics of the body cavity show very little internal bleeding either. So where did it go. I think you're probably right, there was no blood trail because there was no blood pressure after taking out the heart.

Ron

[Ray Hammond]

I think there's more to teh story than that..fellas.

Look at the pictures where Brian found blood on the grass..and look where teh deer fell.

Its all tall brown grass.

If a deer is running full tilt, blood will be coming out and going out to the sides and that is why its smeared along the grass blades. In that type cover there won't be a lot of blood on the ground.

At the end of a 120 yard run, with those kinds of wounds, you probably are not getting a lot of blood anyway at the end. Running full tilt often produces a misty haze of blood...the deer could be pumping blood out its mouth too, in a fine mist.

I cannot tell from the photos whether there was the S cut or not...just cant see them well enough with these old eyes...but I think there's plenty of blood that came out, you just won't see it on the ground because of all the ground cover int he form of brown grass and weeds.

The blood didn't disappear...if there's none left in the body, it had to go somewhere. My guess is its all over that grass and if you walked in there with blue food coloring dyed hydrogen peroxide and spray it in a mist on that grass, you'd see blue foam everywhere!

[Brian Krebs]

blue food dye in the peroxide eh? I gotta try that!

 The ground in the grasses was broken snow; but honest; I spent a lot of time looking for the tiniest bit of blood. In fact I found where a cat killed a mouse. Not denying the peroxide would have showed some more blood; I really got down on my knees where I did find blood; and between where I did; and looked hard for any tiny trace of blood. Didn't see any.

 From my experience the heart shots cause a big shock to the animal; and they run fast - hard - and back and forth -and without a general escape plan - so you have to think outside the box a bit on finding them.

 I was really shocked to see yards of undisturbed snow with not a single drop to be seen - with the deers tracks leading right through it.
 
The blood clot I took a picture of was probably in the 1/2 gallon size- I took it from the chest cavity; and the other pictures show the blood in the body cavity. Thats where the blood was- in the deer- not leaking out.

 The head did cut; the way it twisted in and out made a flap that closed up; and the hair was soaked with blood. The blood I found on the grasses was wiped on as the deer passed by.

 I think the hair and the wound kept the blood from leaving the body; there was a lot of blood in its chest cavity! And this was not a whopper of a deer. I feel certain that this would not have happened with a summer coat on the deer.

 As far as the hybrid status; there were attempts to breed whitetails with mulies to get bigger racks. In captivity the hybrids were not 'thrifty' and died and the attempt to use hybrids in a breeding program: was abandoned.

 Whitetails live on riverbottoms as we know; and so do mulie does. Mulie bucks stay up high; and come down for the breeding season.

 The difference in the breeding; is that whitetails will chase does coming into heat for miles and miles; and does will not stand until they are really into estrus.

 The mulies does are an easier catch; they will only run a short ways; and are a dream date for the whitetail bucks-- and the whitetails are here: before the mulie bucks come down.

 As we know - whitetails reaction to danger is to run off in long stretched out bounds; and then go into cover- and put their tails down to see if they are being followed. Its an instinctive trait.

 The mulies have a habit of trotting off; and they 'stot' - when they go fast; they leave the ground and all four feet come together in bounding. They will normally go to a place in the open- like the edge of a ridge: and look back to see if they are being followed.

 The hybrids get a mixed message on what to do when threatened. Part of their brain says to run with their tail up- and legs stretched out in flight; and part says to stot; and sometimes they just freeze up in a confused state. A lot of hybrid bucks meet their maker at that point.

 The hybrids ~can~ be sterile; but the big problem is that they are not good survivors. And they eat availible food in competition for the other deer.

 There chests are rounder; and the meat is really really good.

 Ray there was a slight but noticable 'S' in the cuts- most noticeable in the entrance and exit wounds. that is what kind of forced the wound together; that and the long hair soaked; and matted; keeping the entrance and exit holes even less likely to allow blood out.

 My fear is the same thing happens with thickly coated bear hair.....

Lesson is though - that a deer can go a ways hit well; and not leave much sign- and knowing that I hope: will keep our fellow bowhunters heart full of hope; and confidence; and lead to less loss of game. I know I got to a point where I was really frustrated- had I not total confidence in my shot; my efforts to find the deer might have weakened. I thought this would be a good learning lesson for others.

[Jerry Wald]

Only two things that come to mide here. Tuning..you say it was a very close shot. If your arrow wasn't flying perfect (maybe release..??) they it might have entered and then had to straighten out again..dunno.

I like wide broadheads. Mine are 1.5" wide and i think they leave an excellent entry and exit hole.

Main thing is that you recovered her.

just my thoughts.

Jer Bear

[Ray Hammond]

under those conditions my hat is off to you, many would have NOT recovered that deer, Brian.

Very odd.

On the other hand, I have only shot a handful of deer in OH and IN..and even they didnt have hair like that deer did. Thats the longest deer hair I have ever seen. I bet she wasn't cold!

[Dave Lay]

congrats on the deer and good job shootin and findin her!  I also am not a big griz fan but its not through experience as I have never used them, so my opinion on that is useless, I just like a bigger head ie zwickey delta/magnus 1,  killed a bunch of critters with the zwickeys. blood trails vary greatly, depends on what ya hit. and a deer running full tilt leaves a pretty good gap between drops sometimes.. I also think that paradox played a big role in the lack of a pass through on that close of a shot. again good job.. you did your part!