Finally ready to tune

[Greg Owen]

I have searched the posts here and elsewhere, read some articles, and am finally at the point of shooting and cutting arrows (point of no return).  Here are the steps I have taken so far.

Longbow - Bear Montana 50#@28" with 28" draw.
I am starting with full shafted 2016 Easton
     Legacy aluminum arows
Inserts are 100 grain and plan to use 160 grain
     tip.
I have 3 tip weights above and below my target
     tip weight.

Replaced string with a 6 strand from bgram.
Let the string stretch for 2 weeks.
Shot about 100 arrows to finalize string stretch.
Added silencers at the 1/4 points.
Set the brace height to quietest spot found.
Checked each arrow nock fit on string and filed
      the grooves for light tap fit.
Using a tied on dental floss nocking point.

I plan to use the bareshaft planing and broadhead
     planing method of tuning.

I will strip feathers from 2 arrows and use 2
     feather fletched arrows.

Each time shaft stiffness is determined it will
     be verified by changing tip weight before
     cutting arrows.

So, am I ready to go forward or did I miss something?

[Greg Owen]

Ok, so I stripped the feathers off of 2 arrows and put on 175 grain field points. I went out and shot several groups.  Ok, don't panic here but I added a sight to my bow to help make sure my aim was consistent. By the way, all I did was wrap a plastic tie wrap around the bow and cut the end off and dipped it in white paint. I shot at the target 12 yards away. My first group showed the bare shafts 3 inches left and an inch lower than the feathered arrows. The next 3 groups all showed different realtionships. In fact, I have a grouping for all 4 clock positions (12,3,6,9).   It seems I am inconsistent but the feathered arrows always impact within 2 inches of each other and the bare shafts within 3 or so. So I came in from the 8 inches of snow and 18 degrees to warm up. I would think 2016 shafts full length(32") with 110 grain adapter and 175 grain point should show definitely weak at my 50# draw on my Bear Montana. I am not going to cut any arrows till I get consistent results and verify it with different tip weights. I am tempted to just move the nock point up till I can get consistent bare shaft low to make sure all is working right.

[O.L. Adcock]

Greg, Sounds like you are doing OK but you want to look at the averages of several groups and if things seem to get scattered or too close to call, back up!

Are you shooting left-handed? "My first group showed the bare shafts 3 inches left and an inch lower than the feathered arrows."

Bare shafts grouping left of the fletched shafts is a stiff indication for a right-handed shooter. If scattering with no rythme nor reason, that can be under spined. Just play with point weight and try to force it one way or the other. I've even shot arrows with no points at all to force them to behave stiff. Be methodical with one change at a time....O.L.

[grouseshooter002]

Greg,
    You didn't mention if you are right or left handed. To me it sounds as if you need to work on form and anchor point before you start bareshaft testing. I would also eliminate the fletched shafts until your form and bareshafts improve. One other thing you didn't mention is in which direction the nocks were pointed. Please include more info in your next post.

Rick

[Greg Owen]

I shoot right handed.  The nocks are left of the points on the bareshafts.  I am a beginner so maybe it is form but most often the fletched arrows are within 1-2 inches of each other and the bareshafts are very close. The bareshafts just group in different locations to the fletched. I made the assumption that the nocks being left of the tips (meaning the arrows are curving to the right) indicate that the shafts are weak so I cut of about 3/8th inch and will try again. Thanks for the help.

[grouseshooter002]

Greg,
    If your bare shafts are hitting left with the nock right the shaft is too stiff. Start with a full length shaft at 10 yards,target at your height, and don't use the sight you mentioned. Focus on the spot, hold for a full second and release. Your full length shafts should hit to the right of the spot. Try this and post your results.

Rick

[O.L. Adcock]

greg, Don't get caught up in the "nock left/right" stuff it'll lie to you. ONLY look at the relationship between the fletched and bare groups.

" I would also eliminate the fletched shafts until your form and bareshafts improve."

Do not follow this advice. The fletched shafts are necessary for a refference. It's the ONLY thing that will accurately tell you what is wrong. Ricks method is too dependant upon form therefore it wooks poorly. You'll never "fix" left right kicks caused by form with arrow and bow adjustments....O.L.

[Greg Owen]

I am learning and getting confused- not by the comments here.  I finaly got the arrows and shafts grouping well. But I can see the fletched arrows are not flying true. They appear to be kicking out tail left ( I shoot right handed ). So I figured move from 12 yards to 20 and the shafts and arrows will move apart. They didn't. I am getting 5 or 6 inch groups with the arrows and shafts randomly placed in the grouping.  I had someone stand behind me and he definitely sees the fletched arrows flying wobbly.  It sure seems to me that 2016s at 31.5 inches with 275 grains up front should be week out of my 50 pound Bear Montana. I even have a 6 strand D97 string to add to the strength of the bow which should weaken the arrows. I will get it, I never give up.  Perfection is an elusive dream but I plan to chase it to my last breath.  All the practice can't hurt thats for sure. Thanks for the help.

[grouseshooter002]

O.L.,
    In all due respect aren't we attempting to have the bare shaft fly the same as the fletched shafts. If this is true than wouldn't we start by doing one of two things,finding the right length shaft that will fly true neither right or left. Second would be to adjust the nocking point so the shafts wouldn't hit high or low of the spot. Once this is done at say 10 yards then we could introduce fletched shafts cut to the same length as the bare shafts and fine tune from there. Form must be consistent for any  type of tuning to work successfully.This is only my way of doing it and in no way reflects on others.

Rick

[O.L. Adcock]

Rick, "aren't we attempting to have the bare shaft fly the same as the fletched shafts."

We are trying to get bare shafts and fletched shafts to "group" together with the bare shafts a touch low and weak from as far away as possible.

If you mean to fly "straght" or stick in the target "straight"...No....The best shooters can not shoot a perfectly tuned shaft "straight" most of the time.

There are 2 bare shaft tuning methods, one works, the other does not. Any method that looks at how "straigt" the shafdts flys or the angle it sticks in a target is the "kick" method and is too dependant upon good form to be of any use. Paper tuning is the same thing, all but worthless.

The other method od the planing method and can be done without bare shafts by using wide broadheads. The way it works is compareing where fletched shafts "group" in relation to where bare shafts or wide broadheads group. Fletched target or firld points will fly very close to where they are pointed even if poorly spined. Bare shafts or wide broadheads will not. They will group "some where else" if poorly tuned. Where they group, high, low, left, or right tells you what is wrong. Poor form only makes your groups bigger, nothing in your form will cause fletched shafts to group one place and bare shafts another.

Greg, What would happen if your equipment was perfectly tuned but your release wasn't consistant? Would the arrows "kick"...You bet they would...You'd make adjustments to perfectly tuned shafts and screw things up...Don't worry about that "kick"..Look at where the groups average....O.L.

 http://www.bowmaker.net/tuning.htm

[grouseshooter002]

O.L.,
    You should tell Rod Jenkens that paper tuning doesn't work.
    Greg, do what ever works for you just don't try to do two things at one time.

Rick

[O.L. Adcock]

Rick, Rod is a "machine" with VERY good form..Those that do can make it work, that leaves the other 99% of us that can't!    ...O.L.

[Greg Owen]

O.L. and Rick,
I appreciate the comments. I am using them and experimenting and learning. I know I will figure out the problem. I just need some time and weather thats not below freezing with 8 inches of snow on the ground.  We all do things differently but are striving to reach the same place.  When I get there, I'll say hello to Rod! Also, I changed to 3 under to try this. Maybe I will go back to split.  I have even thought about going to the dark side and trying out my old mechanical release to see what the arrows indicate.  Learning is fun. And I never back away from challenging myself to do better. Now if the snow storm they are predicting for tomorrow hits, I will re-read all the tuning information and great posts here on Tradgang.

[grouseshooter002]

Greg,
    Amen and have a "Merry Christmas".

Rick

[O.L. Adcock]

Greg, "I have even thought about going to the dark side and trying out my old mechanical release to see what the arrows indicate."

What you'll learn with that is it doesn't tell you a thing, the best arrows for fingers and the best for a mechanical release are 2 different things. 2 people with the same style and draw length can not swap bows and still be tuned....O.L.

[Greg Owen]

Ok, I just thought that if using a 'perfect' release, I was still not able to get great flight that would indicate torquing the bow with my bow hand.

[O.L. Adcock]

Greg, I was trying to tune a bow last year that could not be shot into targets nor could the arrows be seen in flight. So I rigged up a piece of paper to shoot through. I could make the arrow "kick" any direction I wanted just with bow hand pressure and it didn't take but a tiny bit. So much so we do it no matter how hard we try not to. And that was with a release aid. It would have been worse adding the inconsistancy of fingers. That's why trying to tune arrows with the kick methods are so frustrating for most. Some can do it and some "think" they can do it. As long as they're happy!   ...O.L.

[Greg Owen]

I went back out today and found shooting split finger worked better. I think I am tracking down a problem. I wanted 100 grain inserts. I found some that were for 5/16ths carbon but they are loose in my 2016 aluminums. So I bought a weight system. I had an insert, an adapter, two 30 grain weights and a 20 grain weight. This all addes up to 2.5 inches orf so. This goes in the end and the insert fits tight but the rest of the weights just stick in there and vibrate.  I need to find something better. I did find that 2 layers of black electrical tape made the 100 grain brass inserts fit tight in the 2016s. Would you trust hot melt gluing this in to your shafts? It seems more stable than 2.5 inches of weights vibrating behind the insert.

[Greg Owen]

I want to thank you guys for all your help. I am almost there. I have learned alot. I am back to 20 yars and the bare shafts are hitting 1/2 inch to 1 inch low and 2 to 3 inches right. What is the definition of a little low and a little right that I should be at before adding the feathers back?  I am thinking another 3/8ths off the length and leave the nock point where it is.  One thing I haven't seen written on the tuning subject is if you don't have perfect form, you need to shoot many shots before 'averaging' them to know what to change. I have been shooting close to 100 shots for each small change.  I also somewhat weight them by the feel of the shot. If I pluck the string, those results get weighted low, but if the shot feels good I consider those shots more heavily. I guess that could be called kind of a weighted average. If you take your time and pay attention you can get the tuning done. I am mostly shooting better groups now with the bare shafts than I ever have with fletched arrows. I am sure the practice has helped but the tuning makes a huge difference too.

[Greg Owen]

I think I ran into a problem I can't solve in this tuning.  Santa is bringing me a Shrew. I'll never get the Bear Montana tuned now. Darn!