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Author Topic: ACS and Wood Arrows  (Read 501 times)

Offline PastorSteveHill

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ACS and Wood Arrows
« on: December 22, 2008, 10:50:00 PM »
Need some help with getting a wood arrow to spine out of  acs longbow/ CX

It is 51 lbs. @ 30'
I pull 29.5 inches, so 49 lbs.

I need the arrow to be 30 long (just shooting 3D, not hunting, so no need for the extra length)...

What would you start with?

Would you build out the shelf a little, and if so , with what material?

Thanks to all...
Blessings,
Steve

Offline Danny Rowan

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2008, 10:59:00 PM »
at 29.5 you will pulling closer to 50#. You are gonna need at least 70# spine for your wood arrows maybe even a bit more. If you build out the side plate you can get by with less spine. This is assuming 125-145 gr point. If you go over 145 gr for a point you will need more spine.
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Offline Carbon Caster

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 11:07:00 PM »
I think Danny is close, but I would bet 80# would be closer to the spine you would need without building out the sideplate.  Personally, I would start with 85# at 31" long and tune with point weight and or shortening the shaft if needed.
Gen 27:3  "Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;"

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Offline PastorSteveHill

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 11:19:00 PM »
Thanks Danny and Brian.  How do you build out the side plate? What material would you use???
Blessings,
Steve

Offline PastorSteveHill

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 11:34:00 PM »
Leather? Velcro? What is best???
Blessings,
Steve

Offline flint kemper

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 11:43:00 PM »
I would say 80-84 with no side plate build out with 125 grain points.Flint

Offline sagebrush

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2008, 12:35:00 AM »
I have a 45# ACS CX and I draw to 29 1/2. I was messing around with 75 and 80 pound woods. They didn't shoot that good for me until I put 200 grains on for a point. I don't know if this is normal or not but they shot better for me with that much weight on. I am now building some 60-65# woods. Gary

Offline PastorSteveHill

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2008, 12:50:00 AM »
Sagebrush, did you leave the sideplate as is, or build it out any???
Blessings,
Steve

Offline sagebrush

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2008, 01:45:00 AM »
I left it as is.

Offline Guru

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2008, 06:28:00 AM »
Why don't you wait to build out your side plate till you get your arrows and start tuning......
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Offline John Havard

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2008, 07:58:00 AM »
Steve, you can build out the side plate with anything.  A second smaller strip of velcro under the outer layer or a bit of skived leather glued to the sight window under the strike plate - most anything will do.  

We intentionally cut the bows 3/16" past center so the bow can be tuned to your arrows.  Often a tiny bit of strike plate build out (1/16" or so) can change the needed spine of an arrow out of the bow by more than 10# (depending on arrow length and point weight and bow draw length).  There's no simple magic formula.

I draw 30" when bored and a bit more when excited.  I don't build out the side plate on my bows.  On my hunting arrows (which are on the heavy side - around 600-650 grains) I'll have 250-300 grains of that total weight at the point.  So with a 31.25"-long arrow shaft to the BOP and with that much weight up front and pulling around 60# @ 30" I have to use THE STIFFEST arrow shafts I can find - usually carbons with a total deflection of .280".  That translates into a very stiff spine - around 125# as I recall.

Now, with wood arrows and using one of my lighter set of test limbs (as the R&D guy all I get to play with are the experimental sets I build) I'll have perhaps 125-145 grain points with a tapered shaft.  Again, without building out the strike plate the arrow shafts (11/32nds or sometimes 23/64ths with the butt tapered to 5/16") will be spined about 15# heavier than my draw weight, again with a 31.25" arrow.  

Lots of things changed between my heavy carbon hunting arrows and my lighter target wood arrows.  Notably the point weight and the diameter of the arrow.  The wood arrow is a larger diameter than the carbon, and that changes the alignment of the shaft and the plane of the string when it's on the string and resting against the strike plate.  With less point weight and with a larger diameter (and still without building out the strike plate) my long wood arrows are spined closer to the draw weight of the bow - perhaps 15# over.

Now, all of the above changes if I simply build out my strike plate.  Let's say I already have a dozen carbon arrows with a weaker spine and I wanted to shoot them with that much point weight.  They'd fly weak.  But if I were to simply build out the side plate maybe 1/16" or 1/8" they'd fly just fine out of the same bow.  That's the beauty of any bow - not just the ACS - when it's cut well past center.  You can tune the bow to your arrows (within reason) and therefore you don't have to find just the perfect spine arrow.

I personally don't like to build out the side plate because of my shooting/aiming style.  Unless my surroundings absolutely prevent it I will always choose to shoot with the bow nearly or perfectly vertical.  I anchor under my jaw and I use the alignment of the shaft in my peripheral vision to help me with my windage (left/right) as I form my sight picture before releasing.  I like the arrow shaft, when on the string, to be as nearly perfectly in the same plane as the string - perfect center shot.  I'm a draw, hold, form-a-sight-picture, then release sort of guy.  Because of my aiming/shooting technique I don't like to build out the strike plate.

If you don't use the arrow shaft for alignment and aiming (like I do) but instead if you focus solely on your point of aim then it doesn't matter if you build out the strike plate or not.

I hope this explanation clears the water a bit instead of making it more muddy.  Bottom line - there's no single answer for your question.  Simply put, building out the sight plate is just one more tool (like altering arrow shaft length or point weight) which enables you to get perfectly tuned arrow flight.

Offline John Havard

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2008, 08:28:00 AM »
Steve, one other point I didn't talk about in the preceding post has to do with arrow length.  You mentioned that your arrows would be around 30", so you're a prettly long-draw guy.  That's why I used myself and my arrows as an example.

The shorter the arrow shaft the stiffer spine it will have (all other things being equal like point weight, etc.)  So let's say I only draw 26" or 27" instead of 30-31".  I would not need arrow shafts as stiffly spined in relation to the poundage (at the shorter draw length) as I do with 31.25"-long shafts.  So, instead of needing 125#-spine carbon hunting shafts I'd maybe only need 75-90#-spine shafts.  All of that is based on NOT building out the side plate.

For your longer draw length and with 30" wood arrows and with a 125-145 grain point I'd recommend that you start with a shaft that's about 15# stiffer-spined than your 50# @ 29.5" ACS.  If your arrows were only 28" long I'd recommend something even closer in spine.

Frustrating I know, but if one single thing changes (like arrow shaft length) then all other things change.  It's sort of like testing bows.  In order to have repeatable and comparable results you have to focus on extraordinarily small details - otherwise test results verge on being meaningless.  So too with selecting arrow spine.  Each choice must be made while considering everything, including arrow shaft diameter.  Good luck!

Offline PastorSteveHill

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2008, 08:35:00 AM »
Thanks Jon. That makes sense.  I've not done alot with wood arrows, but they are intriguing to me..
Blessings,
Steve

Offline Orion

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2008, 09:50:00 AM »
John's got it right, of course.  My ACS is 52#@28, and I draw 28.  Did build out my side plate a little, with a toothpick behind the velcro, so the tip of the arrow is just to the left of the undrawn string.  Set up like that, it will shoot 5/16 POC arrows spined at 55-60# and 11/32 cedars spined from 55# to 85# and probably higher, but that's as high as mine are.  For your two-inch longer draw, you would want to add 10-15# to my minimum as John suggested, i.e., about 70#-75# or more.  In fact, I don't think you can spine it too high.  Nice thing about an ACS, they'll shoot just about anything well as long as you don't underspine.  At least that's been my experience.  Good luck.

Offline stykshooter

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2008, 10:09:00 AM »
Mine's very close to Johns suggestion, I'm shooting 65@28 and arrow length is 30". When I got the bow many suggested over 90/94. Ended up with 80/84 with 145 heads and they shoot like darts, all over 650 grains

Offline ron w

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Re: ACS and Wood Arrows
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2008, 07:25:00 PM »
I shoot 60-65 at 31" long 125GR with about the same set up,that should be close. You might just change point weight to fine tune. This works for me with cedars and laminated birch.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's there are few...So the most difficult thing is always to keep your beginner's mind...This is also the real secret of the arts: always be a beginner.  Shunryu Suzuki

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