Let's Talk Forgiveness / Bow Design

[PastorSteveHill]

Well, I'm waiting on my little girl to go to sleep so I can play Santa and put presents under the tree... While I"m waiting...


What makes a bow design more forgiving,

1. The limb design, or
2. the riser design?


Reason I'm asking is, I got a couple bows I like.. One is on the way, the other is just a good shooting bow...


The bow I got coming is an ACS CX 3 pcs. Longbow. The limbs on these bows don't torque / no lateral movement etc.. Therefore the claim is to be a more accurate shooting bow.. But the brace height is only at best 7 1/4...

the riser isn't deflexed so that puts the limbs in front of the centers pivot point which I've heard makes a bow less forgiving...


Now the second bow is a BW Recurve Brace Height of 8.5 or 9'... Limbs are behind the center pivot point, but do have wider, heavier limbs which is said to be less accurate and stable than the thinner lighter, less heavy limbs...

The riser is also highly deflexed so that should play into things also...


So what do you guys say?

I know recurves weight more, therefor should be more stable, but just curious.

Is one more intrinsically accurate than the other???

 I know as humans we aren't perfect, and will never be able to shoot as good as most bows are built to shoot, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this subject.

Merry Christmas and to all a good night...

Steve

[bentpole]

Well I'm waiting for my household to get up!  

[Doug S]

I still have a lot to learn about bows. So far though, I think a handle forward (like the widow) 3 pc (more weight)longbow with not much reflex if any would be the most forgiving. I think the handle and the limbs come into play. And the string and the weight of the arrow. Heavy being the best.    
Merry Christmas.

[John Havard]

Since now what I do is design bows I'll offer my opinion about what makes a bow easy to shoot accurately.  Maybe that's the same thing as forgivness?

First of all, the limbs have to be stable.  That's easy to do when the limbs are set well back or leaned dramatically back when unstrung.  But it's also entirely possible to design a bow that's stable even if the limbs are not extremely deflexed when unstrung.  I know of one recurve design that can literally be strung by hand (without a stringer) because the limbs are so deflexed.  It isn't a very good performing bow but it sure is stable!  An old wives tale says that higher brace heights make bows more forgiving because the  arrow stays on the string after the loose for less time, making it harder for the archer to torque the bow and throw off the arrow.  That sounds good and is perhaps a good marketing ploy but I honestly don't believe it is material when compared with other factors.

Next comes physical mass in the bow.  No doubt that added mass helps stabilize a bow in the hand.

The third most important feature that makes a bow easy to shoot is draw weight.  Anybody that tries to pull too much weight will struggle and therefore not shoot well.  This isn't a design thing as much as it is a hormone thing.  A 45# bow shot well will kill almost any game animal on the face of the earth, so straining to shoot more poundage without working up to it over time definitely makes a bow "less forgiving" or harder to shoot.

[Pinecone]

Steve,

I have two ACS bows and several Widows.  Interestingly, they are collectively among the most forgiving bows that I own.  The designs are different, they shoot different arrows, the mass weight of the bows are different, etc...

I think that you hit the nail on the head in terms of the importance of riser geometry and limb design in building a forgiving bow.  That said, there are many other variables that also play into the mix from a shooters (as opposed to a bowyers) perspective including grip, degree of center shot, arrow weight, etc.

All that said, the bows that seem to be the most forgiving for me are 1.) the best tuned bow/arrow combo and 2.) deflexed riser geometry.

Merry Christmas!

Claudia

[John Havard]

Claudia, you brought up another very excellent point - the degree of centershot and its contribution (or deduction) from shooting ease.  Very good point.  For a bow not cut past center, each individual who picks up that same bow will have to search for "the" perfectly spined arrow to fit his/her draw length.  Bows cut past center are much, much easier to shoot because they are less demanding of a perfect spine match between that particular bow and any individual archer shooting said bow.

[Jack Whitmire Jr]

It's all about centershot, grip and nothing else IMO, Shafers and the old Bighorns are fine examples of this, I can shoot any aluminum out of my 53 # shafer from a 1916 to a  2216. That's what makes them easy to tune and shoot. Now they are not barn burners especially the Bighorns, but they shoot and are foregiving    The grip has to be consistent and if it is a low wrist it is hard to be consistent with. Limb design will only determine speed IMO, not foregiveness.


Merry Christmas
Jack

[Shaun]

String follow Hill style longbow. All those other designs are trying to make a basically unstable bow more stable. You can do that with heavy risers, forward grips, good balance, but nothing beats a string follow shape, heavy draw weight (to reduce string torque and bad release) and long limbs when it comes to forgiveness.

[PastorSteveHill]

Good stuff, let's keep it moving...

[Orion]

Because most recurve risers are heavier than longbow risers (That also applies to the entire bow.), they're a little steadier in the hand, and most folks shoot them better.  Of course, most recurve limbs are a little quicker/flatter shooting than longbow limbs as well, which aids in accuracy.  

On bows with the limbs fastened to the back of the riser, there's less chance for torque, which is just an easily fixed grip problem and isn't an issue for most folks anyway, but because the limbs are flexed less when drawn, they're not particularly fast or efficient.  It has the same effect as shortening the draw by an inch or two, and bows just aren't as efficient at short draws.  Stable yes, efficient no.

I've shot just about every recurve, longbow and hybrid out there, and IMO, there isn't a better bow around than the three-piece ACS.  It's among the most forgiving bows I've ever shot.  Among the reasons for this are the riser heft ( a little heavier than most 3-piece longbows because of the fiberglass),ergonomic grip design, cut past center construction, and slightly deflexed limb pads as well as the lateral stability and physical lightness of the limbs.  In short, the limbs are difficult to pull out of alignment, and even if they are, because of their lightness they recover more quickly.

What's the definition of bow forgiveness?  For most, the definition involves compensating for or ameliorating the effects of poor form.  One of the ways my ACS is forgiving for me is through reducing the effect of my tendency to impart some bow arm movement at release. (The yipps)  The arrow clears the bow so quickly that often my involuntary bow arm movement isn't quick enough to pull the arrow off target, at least not by much, and I still hit what I'm aiming at.  Now that's the definition of forgiveness!

[STICKDP]

lOOK AT FITA BOWS AND YOU WILL FIND YOUR ANSERW-- NOW APPLIE THAT TO A BOW YOU CAN HUNT WITH. DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS.

[Doug S]

Good points Shaun.
 Just need more riser weight..

[Mr.Chuck]

I think it comes down to the person behind the bow.   I know guys that can take a stick and a string with a broom handle for an arrow, and shoot it good.   I believe that a forward set grip (deflex) and wide limbs are the most accurate design in the hands of a proficent shooter.  I find designs like the pronghorn much more forgiving then most, for shooter form flaws.  So it really boils down to the marriage of the bow to the shooter. Otherwise, divorce it and find another!    my 4 cents!  :cool:

[Orion]

Good point Chuck.  Some shooters shooting styles take advantage of certain bow styles, or is it the other way around?  :D

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by STICKDP:
lOOK AT FITA BOWS AND YOU WILL FIND YOUR ANSERW-- NOW APPLIE THAT TO A BOW YOU CAN HUNT WITH. DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS.

You beat me to it.  

[STOBBER]

I guess the best gift was the last Christmas that my Dad was with us........He alays gave the coolest stuff, pocket knives , bb guns , fishing supplies , and a TRUCK ! Cant really say i remember a worst...except fer the drawers when i was a kid.     Granny always gave us kids a  pack of tighty whiteys      
The best gift i could imagine would be to share one more fishin' trip with Daddy  and one more cup of coffee with Granny...i sure do miss'em today.

[overbo]

String follow,grip,and brace height.Narrow,thick core limbs.W/ the bow strung,I always check how easy one can twist the tips of the limbs  .Unstrung,I lay the bow down to see if the limbtips touch before the riser.Then I shoot it to check the grip.This is for a recurve.
Longbow grip,grip,and grip.

[Diamond Paul]

Deflex riser, a grip that fits you perfectly, enough length to eliminate string pinch, and enough mass weight to make the bow resist movement.  Like all things, a hunting bow requires a bit of compromise; I wouldn't want to hunt with a tricked out FITA bow, although it would be intrinsically more accurate, because it would be too long and heavy to drag around the woods.  Benchrest rifles are more accurate than hunting weight sporters, too, but no one is going to hunt with one.  Find a bow that fits you perfectly, draws smoothly, and has a reasonable draw weight, and you'll be a long ways in the right direction.  Merry Christmas, Steve.