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Author Topic: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?  (Read 859 times)

Offline sambasamba

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2009, 05:18:00 PM »
in advance, sorry for my poor language, I´m from Europe, therefore my english is far from perfect and i have to admit I have no experience in bowhunting - which is not allowed in my coutry. But I m a MD, and I will try to enlight this topic from that point of view:

For a lung or double lung hit the following mechanisms will most likely lead to death:

The lung is ventilated (expanded) due to negative intrathoracal pressure: lowering the diaphragm (a muscle) and to a lesser extent expanding an elevating the ribs (intercostal muscles between all neighbouring ribs).
The lung adheres to the inner wall of the thorax (chest) because there is a special fluid between lung and thorax that does not expand due to negative pressure (like gas does). this fluid also provides "gliding properties" for the two moving surfaces of lung and inner thorax wall. This mechanism is called Adhesion.

If you now pierce the thorax(chest) wall, the very narrow fluid filled gap between thorax- wall and lung tissue will fill with air, and this in cosequence will lead to a collaps of the lung,( because the lung itself has a elasticity on its own that enables the expiration as a overall passive action; if the body is in exertion (e.g. an anmal hit by an arrow)also expiration (breathing out) becomes an overall active action.
for making the lung collaps you wont even need  to pierce the lung itself.
The collapsing of the lung is called a Pneumothorax (air fills the thoracal gap between lung and inner thorax wall)

If you hit just one lung and no major arteries.
The healthy organism can compensate well with the remaining second lung on the other side.
There are cases where young people suffer from spontaneous pneumothoraxes and walk into the ed with very minor complaints such as little dyspnea only on exertion (seen it myself).
There is one exception which is called a
valvular pneumothorax, a dangerous condition where the entrance wound in the chest forms a valvular mechanism(due to a tissue flap), which enables air to go in but not to flow out. The positive pressure in the hit side of the chest causes the heart to shift on the opposite (healthy) side and compresses the main vessels on the base of the heart which in the worst case leads to death due to a stop of circulation.

A one chest wall or one lung hit without nicking major vessels that causes the lung to completely collapse anyhow will lead to death after days due to the inability of the lung to expand again and the resulting infection(pneumonia)which will affect a non ventilated lung in all cases.


If you pierce the chest wall on both sides (double  lung), no hit of major arteries is needed to cause death. if the hole is to big to close itself again in minutes, the organism will lose its ability to reoxygenate the blood, and will fall unconcious in two minutes (maybe faster in a state of exertion, where more o2 is needed)and die within five minutes from oxygen depletion.

Therefore from my point of view the double lunged animal, that dies quickly (minutes), dies in unconciousness because of oxygen depletion mostly.

If you only hit one lung you have to nick major vessels to cause the animal to die quckly (within minutes), if you don´t produce the rare case of a severe valve pneumothorax.

The reason for the Spraying blood through mouth or nose of the animal are the injured bronchi which are all accompanied through veins and arteries.

For the case of a hit of major vessels (heart itself or mainly base of the heart. An adrenaline rush which normally enables the enormous power for the flight reaction will
rise the heart frequency and the blood pressure to the double, which will in case of a nicked artery exponantiate the exsanguination


Ben

Online rastaman

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2009, 05:39:00 PM »
in layman's terms..dead..due to precise placement of a sharp object!  :thumbsup:  
Thank you sambasamba!
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Offline John3

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2009, 05:45:00 PM »
thanks Ben.. Your english is fine.


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Offline J-dog

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2009, 06:20:00 PM »
Thanks Ben! New a doc could explain it! Your English is fine.

J
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Online Jack Whitmire Jr

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2009, 08:42:00 PM »
He writes better english than I speak  :)
Thanks for the technical insight !


Jack
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Offline Guru

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2009, 07:25:00 AM »
That was awesome Ben...thanx
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Offline allan f

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2009, 07:36:00 AM »
Thank you very much guys.  Ben that explanation was great, and your English is much better then most people in North America.    ;)

So after all that, I guess the best place to shoot an animal is low just behind the shoulder to get both lungs low enough for a lot of gushing blood, and hopefully hit the heart dropping them in seconds.  Nothing new here, but for some reason knowing what is happening on a detailed level seems to give me confidence.

Thanks for all the help.
Allan

Offline ChristopherO

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2009, 11:34:00 AM »
The comments that the blood is coming out of the the nose and mouth isn't the whole story.  Yes, some blood can and does come out of those openings at times, many times, but those good spraying blood trails can be from the wound holes just as easily.  
Ever trailed an animal and were looking for spoor on the plants on the sides of the trail to see how well and high the blood was flowing from the entry/exit holes?  Or following the bright red trail in the snow that on the sides of the animal's footprints?  That is because the entry/exit holes can and do allow the blood out, either dripping or spraying.
Example:  I shot a large 12 pointer broadside, double lung, just a tad above the midpoint of chest which fully exited.  Within 3 steps he was out of sight but I could hear him run straight and then by the sound in the leaves turn a bit to my right, like a J.  At that point I heard him, "HUFF, HUFF", and then all was quiet.  The only blood on the trail was 30 yard from where he was shot and it appeared to be 5 drops from his nose.  No more blood trail from that point on.  When found it looked as if someone exploded a frothy red paint ball grenade about 4 feet above the ground.  Everything in a 10 food radius was covered with blood.  The HUFF, HUFF was his last effort and it blew the blood in his chest out both holes everywhere.  The holes were covered in the frothy blood, too.
Many other examples of personal experience come to mind, too.  Holes in the right place do make a difference is my point.

Offline LKH

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2009, 02:14:00 PM »
I shot a buck in pristine white snow in MT a few years back.  It was hit about midway up through both lungs.  It swung around and died within sight, but I still went to check what the trail looked like.

At first I thought there wasn't any blood for the first 50 yards or so until I went back.  It was then I noticed a fine red mist one the snow about 3-5 feet from the actual track.  It was obvious that every breath was blowing this mist out the wound holes.  

There is no way you would have seen it on anything but snow.

Offline maineac

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2009, 02:28:00 PM »
Don't forget on top of the collapsing of lungs, and/ or the major vessels around the heart, the lungs have the highest concentration of blood vessels in the body. This leads to more blood loss per inch of slice than anywhere else in the body.  The faster the blood loss, the quicker the brain cells start to shut down due to lack of Oxygen.
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Offline aYak

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2009, 04:41:00 PM »
Last season's deer (pic in my profile) ran 75 or so yards (with a really good blood trail to follow), then the trail stopped, I mean absolutely stopped.  Turns out, thru my improper hole management  :eek:  , as he turned UPHILL (~40 yards), he completely stopped leaking, then picked back up again once he decided to go level again. Never seen one do that before (go up that steep a hill after dropping so much blood)
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Offline katman

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2009, 07:42:00 PM »
Great explanation by Ben, we strive for a double hemopneumothorax, that is fill both lung cavities with blood and collapse them. I think the perfect shot for this would be to center punch the lungs just above the heart that way you cut the LARGE main arteries but still have the pump emptying the vascular system. Wish I could shoot that good,lol.
shoot straight shoot often

Offline elkbreath

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2009, 02:46:00 AM »
exactly what I was thinking katman.  Good thread here.

Hitting above the heart, though still low on the body and in the major arteries allows the heart to actually go to work bringing humane death even quicker.  Take the pump out of the equation and it'll take a wee bit longer with less blood being 'thrown' out.  

Low and forward...like it.  again, thanks for the read, all.
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Offline lt-m-grow

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2009, 12:59:00 PM »
I have never seen "big spraying blood trails" from a lung only hit.

The only time I have ever seen "big spray" is on a direct heart shot.  In fact, I have seen clouds of red mist upon a heart shot both fill the air immediately and contrail as deer runs off.

Lung shots, though very deadly, are relatively unimpressive from what I have seen.

Offline ArrowAtomik

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Re: Lung shots, blood trails and the mechanics involved?
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2009, 10:16:00 PM »
"exponantiate the exsanguination..."

We all wish we could say that one three times fast!

Very eloquent,sambasamba.  Thanks for the insight!

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