what gives us hunters a bad name?

[Dave Bulla]

olddogrib,  

I agree with you except for one point....

You said "Hunting is a privilege, not a right."

WEEEELLLLLL....... That isn't my take at all.  I consider hunting to be a God given right and some states are putting it in their laws that way.  

However, like anything else, with freedom and rights come responsibilities.  I believe it is our right to hunt animals but that we have the responsibility to police our own ranks, manage animals as a renewable resource, use the meat and other parts to avoid waste and promote ourselves positively by being polite, responsible and law abiding around the general public.  Just like it's your right to have children but then you have the responsibility to raise them properly.

I don't believe in never wearing camo in public and stuff like that.  Rather, I'll proudly walk through Walmart in my camo and smile and nod to other people, hold the door for a lady and in general be polite and try to make a good impression.  The exception is if my camo is bloody, that's going a bit too far even if only for sanitary reasons and "gross out factor".

You'd be surprised how many people smile back at me and say hi (people I don't even know) when I'm in a store.  Especially when I have my kids with me and they are dressed up in their camo too.  They think it's cute.  Maybe it's a midwest thing but people around here seem to appreciate a Dad doing things with his kids more than they dislike hunting.  Instead of making us look bad as is the subject of this post, I think it makes us look good.

[Brian Krebs]

Anti-hunters give hunters a bad name. That is our number one source of it.

 Bowhunting is going through a phase; its a whack em and stack em; shoot the 'management buck' 'shoot the doe only as a part of responsible game management'; 'I put the crosshairs on him; and pulled he trigger and BOOM down he went- I smoked him!' bowhunters world right now.

 I had a lady visit me that I used to work with over 20 years ago. She sat on my couch and said: "Most of my friends would not be able to sit here; and have dead things on the wall: stare at them".
 She commented about hunting shows; and how to her friends they are considered 'snuff films'.

 And I could understand that. I am sick of seeing guys and gals kill animals just so they can say they killed them.

 This topic started with a story about a guy that bragged about shooting a doe; and then wanted to give away the meat.... but I think IMHO; that he wanted to brag. If he doesn't already know someone that would take the meat; he is not in touch with his world.

 But it is a phase. I have long wanted to clearly separate we traditional bowhunters as being on a different ship than the guys with pre-sighted in bows that require no practice; and are used only to show their prowess with 'any weapon' to kill things.

 That ship of theirs has a lot of good people on it; I think it is sinking; and I hope that the good people can go back to rifle or muzzleloader hunting; or even with a compound can enter the woods mentally instead of just going to kill something.

 I praise this site for just being the other boat. Kind of a ghost ship in its silence on certain issues; letting the wind that has pushed us for hundreds of centuries through all kinds of times and turmoils.

 The concept that hunting is not civilized; and should be in our past - is the base line logic of anti hunters; and anything that feeds that gives us a bad name.

 I see these times as troubled water for the other ship; and I hope we can steer clear of the wake of it and continue sailing forever.

 No act can make us look good to those that hate us; and I think the blackest eye we have comes from making the animals we hunt inanimate objects; instead of being fellow creatures that comfort our souls: on our adventures with our bows -whether we ever shoot at them or not.

 I see this site as a testament to that.
Keep the main sail set moderators: and keep the ship on course....

[Margly]

Antihunters of course try to give us a bad name but why do we need to help them?

For the people of different anti hunter organisations etc, i do think some of them also look for a "human" kill of the animal. Lot of people that not are against for example bow hunting will easily turn over to the "no hunting" side when they go to youtube or other sites and look at clips of hunting where the hunter/hunters wound an animal, bad shoot placement, making jokes about it etc. These kind of sometimes "good intentions clips" makes many people turn every hunter over the same comb. I do really think it is a mistake some hunters do when they publish their hunts where there is several hits on the animal with several arrows and the animal actually is suffering. Of course there is very few people doing this and i know that all hunters agree on respect for what you hunt. But by doing this they actually buying the gas to the fire the "NO organizations" need for lobbying and working against the way of life so many of us love.
Let me be clear of one thing, I am a hunter, both rifle and bow. I eat what i hunt and i also give meat to people around me. I really love to watch hunting DVD`s, clips on the net etc. But it has to be serious and responsible. All i`m saying is that unfortunately a quick search on the net for hunting clips will give you an idea.
Of course we also need to see that it is not just the text book shoot on every animal. I just saying that the people publishing clips also need to think about this side of the medal before publishing their last adventure.
Margly

[Mo. Huntin]

I have long wanted to clearly separate we traditional bowhunters as being on a different ship than the guys with pre-sighted in bows that require no practice; and are used only to show their prowess with 'any weapon' to kill things.

I don't like that. Please don't turn on those ethical compound hunters fight with them and write those shows and ask them what the crap are they thinking.  Don't think the anti hunters are going to let you keep hunting because you like to listen to the birds more when you ram a sharp stick through an animal.

I do agree those guys on tv are killing us with those sickening shows and there shootin deers and drinkin beers shirts.

[jhg]

Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
Anti-hunters give hunters a bad name. That is our number one source of it.

 

I can't agree with that.
 It puts all the blame and so all the responsibility for our image on others.
 I can tell you I have seen some pretty stupid and inconsiderate behavior from hunters. I think our number one source for image problems comes right form us. Sure they us it. But using is not creating it.
So don't kid yourself. It is the hunters that don't care what anyone thinks about them and behave accordingly who hurt our image.

Joshua

[Tsalagi]

Well, I'm new to this board, so will just jump right in.

  I read this thread and have to say: How come I don't have this kinda luck? Man, a guy comes in a place I'm standing and says "Who wants a deer?", I'm all over that action! Free meat! Even those bones would be in the oven being turned to broth!

  But, I'm thinking if a guy has a place to donate the meat ahead of time, ok. If he doesn't, that's just not proper. In this state, it's a violation of game law to knowingly let an edible portion of game go to waste. If I wasn't going to eat the meat, I wouldn't bother to hunt the animal. To me, the eating is part of the whole experience. It's like hunting for mushrooms. It's a beautiful walk in the forest whether or not I find some King Boletes. But when I find those mushrooms, what an experience to eat from my own hand beginning to end! I believe this animal gave its life to me and what better respect can I show than to let this animal give me life by eating it. That animal, in a real sense, becomes a part of me. It's humbling and the skinning, gutting, and dealing with the meat puts a whole new perspective on where food comes from. It also gives me a whole new respect for the people who do that every day for a living in salughterhouses.

I hunt and eat jackrabbits. Lots of people shoot them as "varmints" and don't eat them. I eat the whole animal, to include the organs (except the intestines and stomach) and the bones get rendered into broth for a awesome soup. Would I shoot a coyote? Probably not unless I wanted the pelt. I'd need to get something tangible from taking a life outside the realm of, say, defending myself against an animal. That's just me, I'm not saying everyone has to do that. I hunt for many reasons and food is high up on that list. Hunting jackrabbits and cottontails here is practically a guaranteed source of nearly free meat.

I knew of a guy who wanted the experience of hunting and stalking without killing an animal he wouldn't eat. He bought a camera. Guy had some amazing photos.

[Brian Krebs]

JHG:
      quote:Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
    Anti-hunters give hunters a bad name. That is our number one source of it.

JHG :  I can't agree with that.

 Consider that bowhunting is considered the cruelest form of hunting by anti-hunters. They are set in their ways; and will not back down - no matter what our behavior.

 True enough bad behavior is going to put us in a bad light to non hunters; but anti-hunters ... hunting in and of itself is bad behavior.

 I watch some hunting tv shows and I myself am disgusted by them. Money can buy you things; but it cannot make an experience richer.

[Margly]

Originally posted by Mo. Huntin:
I have long wanted to clearly separate we traditional bowhunters as being on a different ship than the guys with pre-sighted in bows that require no practice; and are used only to show their prowess with 'any weapon' to kill things.

I don't like that. Please don't turn on those ethical compound hunters fight with them and write those shows and ask them what the crap are they thinking.  Don't think the anti hunters are going to let you keep hunting because you like to listen to the birds more when you ram a sharp stick through an animal.

I do agree those guys on tv are killing us with those sickening shows and there shootin deers and drinkin beers shirts.

What kind of separation do you think about??

Trolley shooters with pre-sighted bows that need no practice?? Sir! Have u ever tried to shoot a compound? No practice? As for all kinds of weapons used I can promise you that all off them need practice. I guess there is a lot of people (also tradgangers) including my self that switch between different bows compound/trad and really practice with both of them.

The organisations that are working against the right to hunt will of course not care about what kind of weapon u are using for the kill, BUT what gives us hunters a bad name have nothing to do with what these kind of people think!!

WE as hunters are responsible for the behaviour we present in and around other people and animals in hunting situations. If we as hunters offend the public or do stupid things then WHO is to blame?? The “NO hunt org`s” or the representant for this way of living?? I guess that if u take that thought to consideration u probably will find the same answer as I did.

 

And by the way those sickening shows u are referring to are probably the biggest channel for making more people try hunting, and all the shows I’ve seen on TV or on net are all highly responsible and serious. How do you think they got the possibility to go on TV??

 

And what is wrong with shooting a deer and afterwards back in camp around the fire sitting and sharing the experiences and drinking a beer?

If u don’t drink beer, well then take a coke     I’ll not judge u for that    

Margly

[buejeger]

Couldnt agree more Margly!

Dividing compound and trad shooters serves no one!
Together we stand, divided we fall.
 Although I do agree that we should not always stand together, as Freefeet so well explained... Although I live in Norway I am english and have also witnessed and actively protested against the so called sport of fox hunting with hounds.. which has given all forms of hunting in the Uk a bad name... I still have non hunting friends that cannot believe that I hunt with a bow, but am against fox hunting... to them, all hunting is the same... Non hunting people do not know or really care about the nuances of hunting... its all bad...  but the antis... they love to misinform and "educate" people to the evils of bowhunting... just take a look on youtube.. so much false information thats its unbelievable!

For example:    web page  

Now with this kind of misinformation and propoganda on the net do we really need to add fuel to the fire?

Now I am not pointing any fingers here, but I think that all bowhunters need to think twice about videos pictures etc that are published on the net. Most forums, including this one are public and the posts can be read by anyone... I am 100% sure that PETA and the others are regularly in here reading posts and checking vids etc etc...

And yes, even here on trad gang I have seen videos that any anti would love to use and twist to show how "barbaric" bowhunting is.....

We may be in the woods alone, but on the net we are not!  We are solely responsible for our own reputations, the image people see of us is the image we project.

On our recent rip to Africa I and Margly learnt alot about african game and hunting... In fact we were very surprised that due to many bad outcomes that many PHs are wary of trad equipment...
We were free to hunt with our trad bows, but after hearing all the info and stories this very experienced bowhunter and PH had to say, well I decided to hunt only small game with my widow on this trip and used my Compound to hunt big game, All of which was a one arrow one kill situation with total pass throughs on everything. 100% recovery...
Now I am by no means a bad shot with my trad bow, In fact I am 2009 Norwegian Field Champion and Margly is 2009 bowhunter champion and I will be returning, but I will be returning with more poundage on my trad bow and in fact more poundage on my compound. I know that poundage is not everything and that a well placed arrow from a 50# bow will take down most animals... but as soon as the arrow has left the bow its in the laps of the gods...  In a less than perfect hit situation I owe it the animal AND the reputation of bowhunting to have as much chance of that arrow penetrating through to something vital as possible.

I come from a country where hunting rights weapon rights are severly restricted, I am now living in a country where hunting is more a part of the way of life, and very soon we hope to have Bowhunting legalised here in Norway...  It is so important that bowhunting is seen in a good light at this crucial time for us here in Norway... the world is very small today and I am sure that antis here in Norway are in touch with antis everywhere and irresponsibly posted videos, pictures or stories are not what we or anyone else needs.

So with all respect I ask every hunter to think twice before you post on the net, here or elsewhere....ask yourselves:  can this video/foto/story set bowhunting, or hunting in a bad light?

Good hunting to all of you this season.

Nathan

Buejeger (Norwegian for Bowhunter)

[Mo. Huntin]

You got me wrong Margly That top part of my statement is what Brian Krebs said I copied it and pasted it but don't know how to make it bold faced so that is why you thought I said it.
The middle part is where I was disagreeing with him and saying we should not seperate from compound hunters.
Now I don't know what shows you are watching but cept for Fred Eichler and roadtrips and I have to admitt I am a Nugent fan I don't even watch that crap because it makes me mad.  I could go on all day about long shots with guns bows that no one should be taking and I say that because when they did hit it it was not anywhere near where the shot should have been.  For me it is all about shot placement if you routinely shoot 70 yards and hit an animal in the throat or rear then that is to far.  If you make shots that far and put it in the reasonable kill zone then I got no problem with that.
I do drink beer but I don't where a shirt picturing a drunk redneck with a gun that says " Shootin deers and drinkin beers".  How can that be good for hunters?

[Margly]

Hi Mo. Huntin
Ok. I`m sorry i misunderstood your post.
Anyhow: Have a nice day    
Margly

[Brian Krebs]

I feel we traditional bowhunters have already been separated from compound shooters. Here in the capitol of Idaho- Boise; if you walk into a bowshop and ask for traditional gear... your verbally spat upon for the very thought of hunting with a traditional bow.

 As more and more bowhunters of either ilk go into the woods - the higher the impact. When I see people with compounds making kills for their tv shows at 60 to 80 yards with regularity.. well that might be fine for them - but the increase in the number of kills - that will lead to controls on bowhunting. I know that is a statement based on geography in a great part; as some areas have more animals and situations differ from area to area.
 
 But - when I look at an Idaho photo array of elk taken with 'bows' this season; I see many many elk taken with a compound; and none with a longbow.
 And - when the rifle hunters finish this elk hunt; if they don't see and kill the numbers of elk they want... you better believe they will not forget the many elk taken with a bow.
 And that will lead to revenge; and it will effect both traditional bowhunters as well as compound bowhunters....even though the traditional bowhunters are not making much of a dent in the elk populations in and of themselves.

 I don't want to be in the same boat as the compound bow hunters. I don't want to suffer any repercussions from their actions; and the reactions that result.

 And if comments are going to be made in general about wounding rates by trad hunters compared to compound hunters - I want details; I want to know if it is a general feeling all over africa; or just the tiny part you visited.
 That is a huge statement you made; and I want to know the specifics of it.
 I have seen a problem with African guides as to the fact they tell you when to shoot; and get mad if you don't.
 They want to control the hunt and shot; which is something that shows a lack of understanding of what we trad hunters do.
 So - facts please.

   

[buejeger]

Hi

where i hunted we were lucky , 7000 hectares, massive area, and we had no PH breathing down our neck.dropped off in the morning, picked up when we radioed in a kill or at ythe designated time, be it walk and stalk, treestand, groundblind, or pit blind, we were on our own. Really fantastic.
  Now I dont have the facts in front of me, this was a summary of several conversations with the PH over several evenings around the fire.
There have been several referances to this kind of thing here on trad gang too, with stories of trad hunters shooting sevaral animals and recovering a very low percentage,,, less than 10%.

Now what I said was that after hearing the stories and info from the PH I decided to use my widow for small game only on this trip... 53# at 29"  I would have been happier with 63# at least...

That was my choice, based on what I saw and what I was told by experienced folk there and then.

this particular PH used to shoot with a longbow, has bowhunted for over 30 years and was IFAA world champion 2004... so he knows what he is talking about.

I can try and ring him when I get time and see if he can give me some facts.... but that is not really the point of my post... the point I was trying to make was that I didnt want to risk giving trad bowhunting a worse name by me screwing up and adding to the statistics.,. I felt that after seeing the African animals up close, shooting them with my compound, skinning them and gutting them, examining the bone structure etc etc etc that I really needed a heavier trad bow.... So i chose to not use my trad  bow on anything bigger than Impala.. as it turned out the Impala wernt playing ball so I never got a shot.
So i felt I was doing my bit not to give (trad) bowhunting a bad name,,,,  I hope you get what I am trying to say here    

Not so much facts, but feelings....  and this is also something that applies to the antis; you can throw as many cold hard facts at them as you like, but its their feelings that are the problem..

Regards,  Nathan

[Brian Krebs]

Nathan - not attacking you. I am just curious as to why trad bows are looked at the way they are.

 There is the economic factor - in that success rates look good on resumes. I would think a trad hunter that turned down fifty shots would not be figured into success rates; but the compound shooter that took 99 of the shots out of a 100 and made kills would.

 I can accept reality; but I don't think we are there yet on this issue.

 If you felt you were under-bowed then you did the right thing.

[Sam McMichael]

It's a matter of perspective or point of view. To most of us, who consider ourselves ethical hunters,  killing game with no intention of using it or at least not having a plan to give to someone who will use it gives a bad name, as will any action that is unethical or shows no respect for the game we take. In that sense we consider a bad name at the level of the individual. To anti-hunters, though, the mere fact that we are willing to kill an animal for whatever reason makes all hunters evil - even if we could solve world hunger by taking a single game animal. Therefore, I no longer really care much about any other person's criticisms. If I can respect the ethics of the guy I see in the shaving mirror and can justify my actions to my maker, I feel O.K. about myself. With that being said though, we can't just ignore totally the opinions of those who don't like us, because, unfortunately, such philisophical disagreements usually get worked out in the political arena, meaning that we must be very active to project an honorable image and work diligently not to let anybody legislate us out of existence. I don't personally get into "discussions" with the other side anymore, because I lack diplomatic skills and do have one basic Neanderthal thought - most any isuue can be settled by a good right cross.

[Dave Bulla]

Good post Sam!