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Author Topic: Whitetail herd managment question?  (Read 558 times)

Offline katie

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Re: Whitetail herd managment question?
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2009, 11:15:00 AM »
The 80 acers I talk of is the timber I hunt.  I have the 200 acers of crops on the south.  No one hunts it.  It is all open.  One pond with no cover.  The guy to the North of me has 200 acers of a nasty thicket timber(buck bed in this area) and crp grass.  he hunts with a recurve.  Shoots mainly does and only takes bigger bucks.  The land to the West of me is 200 acers of timber private owned by a DNR officer.  He takes as many does as he can, one "management" buck and then goes for the big boys.  He got a great 12 last season.  To the West of him is 160 acers of timber owned by my family in a wildlife refuge.  Only my husband, myself, and my son can hunt it.  We do not hunt it.  It is up and down and nasty thicket.  I am getting ready to put cameras in it to see what it holds.  I would guess a lot since it has been a sanctuary for 30 years!  To the West of it is 80 acers of public.
As a group, we are all bowhunters.  Each place sees only 2 hunters each.  I think we have a nice amount of land for the # of hunters.
I do see big boys on my place.  Last season I saw 2 of the biggest I have ever seen.  One, I have seen this season as well.  I just see a crazy amount of 8 pointers.
Thanks for all the help guys.
Katie
"Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home; that wildness is a necessity"  John Muir

Offline katie

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Re: Whitetail herd managment question?
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2009, 11:48:00 AM »
Having some trouble with photobucket.  If this works, it is a pic of one of the deer I would like to breed my does:)  This was taken under my stand straight south of my house.  600ft from my backdoor.
 

I think my question stemed from the fact that out of the 3 properties around my place, only one seems to punch his buck tag each year.  The rest of us mostly don't due to waiting for(or missing) a mature buck.  Then not many bucks are being taken.  But it sounds like the winter after rut helps with buck managment.
"Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home; that wildness is a necessity"  John Muir

Offline overbo

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Re: Whitetail herd managment question?
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2009, 12:02:00 PM »
Katie,
I'm so sorry for your delima.NOT,com-on you are posting complaining about too many 8 point bucks!You r killing me.

Offline Michael Arnette

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Re: Whitetail herd managment question?
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2009, 12:23:00 PM »
You lucky girl. I am surrounded by rifle hunters. They are great people but they shoot lots of green bucks. I am no biologist but if there was a buck that didn't grow much at all I don't think it could hurt anything to take him out of the herd.

Offline leatherneck

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Re: Whitetail herd managment question?
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2009, 04:47:00 PM »
Looking at that buck I'm not sure what your dilema is. Looks to me like there are some good genes in that pool.?????????????  :confused:
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Offline katie

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Re: Whitetail herd managment question?
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2009, 07:59:00 PM »
Not complaining boys.  I know I am very blessed with the land I have.  Just wanting to know the best way to run it.
Katie
"Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home; that wildness is a necessity"  John Muir

Offline RRock

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Re: Whitetail herd managment question?
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2009, 08:01:00 PM »
It is in fact important to take does, within reason. I've seen what 6 years of intensive doe taking has done and it's something I wouldn't recommend. Now there may have been other factors involved beyond our knowledge. I'm a firm believer you have to monitor the doe numbers every month of the year. The core area for does and fawns is pretty small "IF" there is a good food source even during the rut. Bucks do in fact range far and wide during the rut. The rest of the year, their core area is smaller than you might imagine. Again, depending on the food availability. If they have security, food and water they hang around pretty close to home (their core area). A buck will stay in his area until the available breedable does have been bred before they start to range out. As was mentioned above, the does will keep the bucks home. So, In my opinion you can in fact kill to many of the does off and hasten the departure of the bucks to greener pastures if you will.. If you kill off yearling and 1-1/2 year old bucks you will never know what potential you have destroyed. having said all that, each one of us sets our own standards as to what we will harvest. Because we each one of us makes our own minds up, that decision is what is right for each one of us. For me, I like to keep the does around, I refrain from taking young bucks and have set a minimum size of an eligable buck. Do I take a buck every year? no, but to me me it's all about the journey. In an area of 400 acres, can have 4 families of does living there.

Offline katie

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Re: Whitetail herd managment question?
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2009, 08:09:00 PM »
thanks RRock.  Point taken.
How do you know how many does is good?  I went out the day after season ended last year.  I leaned against a tree and counted near 65-75 does out in the back field.  Knocked my socks of since I did not get a arrow in one all season.

PS-the buck in the pic above is a rare thing in my woods.  I have seen him and one like him in all my days hunting.
"Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home; that wildness is a necessity"  John Muir

Offline Stiks-n-Strings

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Re: Whitetail herd managment question?
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2009, 09:28:00 PM »
Me and my dad manage 90 acres and have seen alot more nice bucks over the last few years. The first few years we piled up does. not so may now a days but we do take a few. We work real close with the surrounding neighbors who own a combined 600 acres or so and everyone of them except one guy who has fourty and kills anything agree on a plan. I think that is the biggest factor in our situation.
 Out of all the landowners in this area my dad and Myself are tha only ones who use feeders and plant food plots and put out mineral licks year round except during season cause we are not allowed to hunt over a baited area. We use Whitetail Imperial products and love them and purina deer chow in our feeders.
Good luck
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Offline Mojostick

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Re: Whitetail herd managment question?
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2009, 10:09:00 PM »
50% of genetics come from the female. In order to influence racks by selecting individual buck harvests, you'd need several 1000 acres with extremely intense buck harvest management, like on a big professional Texas ranch.

When trying to improve buck age structure in any given area, think body size/age vs the rack. If you're trying to do more QDM style management, shoot as many females as needed and try hunting the oldest 20% of bucks in any given area and let the rack chips fall where they may.

Mature bucks is what QDM is about, not rack size. It just so happens that about everywhere in the country, if a buck makes it to 4-5 years old, he typically has an impressive rack.

The buck mentioned could breed with any given doe and create a monster buck offspring, if that fawn was then allowed to reach maturity.

This is a good article by Charles Alsheimer...
 http://charliealsheimer.com/ca/articles/art_theywalk.html

THEY WALK 'TIL THEY DIE
by Charles J. Alsheimer

Long time readers of Deer and Deer Hunting know of the quality deer management program many Steuben County, New York landowners instituted back in 1991. When we organized we had visions of putting some real slammers on the wall. At the time we figured that if we could pass on the yearling and 2 1/2 year old bucks we'd have the seed needed to get a fair number of these passed bucks to 4 1/2 years of age or older. For the most part this has never happened.

In the last 5-7 years several QDM practitioners in our group ramped up their scouting by using trail monitoring cameras as a way to find out what kind of bucks were using their land. This form of scouting has proven to be very enlightening. Prior to using cameras most of us felt that if we could provide the best possible nutrition, in the form of food plots, have great sanctuaries, and limit the way we hunted, we could hold frequently seen bucks on our properties. What we discovered has made us rethink this mindset.

The Younger Generation
Typically 1 1/2 year old bucks will cover far less ground than 3+ year old bucks during the autumn months. For the most part yearling bucks come into their first hard antler autumn having dispersed from nearby lands to set up their first home range. Though they will travel during the rut they are more apt to stick close to their new home range, providing food and cover is plentiful. Our trail camera data has shown this to be the case and in many instances the same yearling bucks show up on the same cameras day after day, throughout the hunting season, whether the rut is full blown or not.

Two and half year old bucks are much different than yearling bucks and the distance they travel will be dictated by the doe population and number of older class bucks in their immediate area. On most ranges where little or no quality deer management is practiced the two and a half year old bucks are the oldest bucks in the herd and do most of the breeding. If they have adequate food, cover and a good doe population they won't be inclined to travel much.

However, in areas where there is a fine-tuned deer management program in place (meaning great food, cover, adequate does and a reasonable number of 3+ year old bucks present) their traveling story can be quite different. In such herds 2 1/2 year old bucks will often travel great distances during the rut in their quest to be a part of the breeding equation.

Alpha Class
3 1/2 year old: For the majority of North American deer range the 3 1/2 year old bucks are the ones a hunter dreams of hunting. A 3 1/2 year old buck is kind of like an 18 year old human male. He thinks he knows his way around females and is willing to do whatever it takes to show them he's the man. Both are maxed out on testosterone.

Having raised many 3 1/2 year old bucks over the years I can offer that most feel they are bullet proof, can put a whopping on any buck walking, and have an incredible desire to be top gun in the herd. Simply put, they are driven to be the alpha buck and prepared to do whatever it takes to make it happen. In parts of the country where great soils are found 3 1/2 year old bucks can easily sport antlers in the 125-150 Boone and Crockett range.

By the time late October rolls around in the North a 3 1/2 year old begins exhibiting all the classic behaviors you would expect from a mature buck. He goes out of his way to bully younger, and sometimes even older bucks he encounters. The most common way he does this is by exhibiting threat walking (ears pulled back, hair on end, eyes rolled sideways with front legs stiff as he walks) when he encounters subordinate bucks. It's only when he tries the same strategy on bucks his age or older that he gets into a fight. Ugly fights can occur at any point from velvet peel to antler cast. However, they often take place when two like-size bucks square off over the same estrous doe.

A 3 1/2 year old buck also does a tremendous amount of rubbing and scraping, especially if other bucks of his age class share the same territory. And it is not uncommon for several bucks to work the same scrape throughout the autumn months. It is a way for them to show dominance and leave their own scent behind for all to notice. Though this age class will rub small trees, they often take out their rubbing frustration on trees with a 4" or greater diameter.

4 1/2 year old: Four and half year old bucks have the same attitude as a 3 1/2 year old but are better equipped to prove their point. By the time a buck reaches 4 1/2 they have matured and are studs in every sense of the word. In most cases they are king of the mountain because few places in North America can expect to have a large number of bucks older than 4 1/2 without high fences. In the 16 years I've been practicing QDM on our farm I've only killed two 5 1/2 year old bucks. Three were 4 1/2, but the vast majority have been 3 1/2 year olds. Though a 4 1/2 year old buck will bully and fight younger bucks during the rut he isn't nearly as aggressive with them as 3 1/2 year olds are. In the majority of cases yearlings and 2 1/2 year old bucks give a 4 1/2 year old buck all the space he wants because they know he is the king and they aren't going to change the situation, no matter how much they want to.

This age class will rub and scrape more than 3 1/2 year old bucks. The rut is all about dominance and breeding rights and for this reason 4 1/2 year old bucks go out of their way to prove they are a herd's alpha animal.

Two's A Crowd-Three Won't Work
It's not uncommon for several 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 year old bucks to spend the summer hanging out together in bachelor groups. When this occurs landowners get excited. Unfortunately this excitement can be short lived because a whitetail buck is driven to be the breeder.

When a deer range contains several mature bucks the stage is set for many of these bucks to be losers in the breeding sweepstakes. The fights to determine who will do the breeding can be intense and when a mature buck loses a fight he often moves on to another area in hopes of becoming the alpha buck. For this reason it is very difficult to stockpile wild free-ranging bucks.

They Follow Their Nose
To the winner goes the spoils and any buck who finds himself the odd man out will act accordingly. With the rut approaching and the air filled with pheromones a buck will begin walking if he is not the alpha buck. He goes from doe group to doe group and if he finds an area that does not have a dominant mature buck he may set up shop there if the doe population is adequate to fill his desires. If not, he will move on. During this process a buck may move multiple times, covering 4,000 acres or more, which may mean several miles.

The bottom line is the 3s and 4s walk till they die. Because they are constantly on the go they eventually find themselves in a hunter's sights. A couple examples illustrate this.

Two Cases from Many
Our farm is situated between three other landowners who are aggressively managing for better deer and better deer hunting. Together the four properties encompass over 700 acres. All of us plant a variety of food plots and work to keep our doe population in check. We also use trail cameras to help us know what is on our land.

The buck I killed last fall was a very nice 3 1/2 year old for my part of western New York State. I photographed him on my trail camera several times, as did some of the others in our group. I also knew of him being sighted more than a mile from me, well off the four cooperating properties. This guy fit the bill as being a real active walker.

On November 19, 2002 I killed my best New York buck to date, a 150 class 4 1/2 year old. What was interesting about this buck is that a friend of mine had photographed him on November 7th-nearly 2 air miles from where I killed him. I had never seen the buck before the day I put my sights on him and had never captured him on my trail cameras. Like last year's buck and many others I have killed, this 4 1/2 year old was a real walker and his wandering got him killed.

I could go on and on with example after example of the distance we've seen bucks travel in my area. What needs to be gleaned from our experiences (and others from around the country) is that regardless of how good your habitat is you probably cannot hold all your prized bucks once the rut begins. If a 3 or 4 year old buck can't be the alpha male on your land they will go to where they can be.

Realistic Expectations
In the real world having a few 3 1/2 year old bucks is about the best one can expect to find, at least for the majority of whitetail locales. Why? Because hunting pressure does not allow for older class bucks in most herds. Hunters desiring to hunt truly mature bucks (4 1/2 year old and older) have to go to areas where deer are managed for age or remote habitats where many bucks can survive to maturity.

This figure will vary throughout the country but after 16 years working at this QDM game I've come to the conclusion that the best we can hope for in my area is one or two 125" to 140" bucks for every 250 acres. And this can only happen if you attempt to do everything right, from food plots to doe management, to passing up the younger bucks. Mature bucks cover a lot of ground in their quest for breeding rights and when they walk, they usually die.

Offline Mojostick

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Re: Whitetail herd managment question?
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2009, 10:27:00 PM »
Here's a good article on culling. The last paragragh is a good summary...

    http://qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=124    

QDMA Articles :
Is Culling Necessary? (October 2006)
By: Kip Adams

Today many hunters are implementing deer management programs aimed at increasing the average age of bucks and the nutritional level for the deer herd. As they begin seeing more 2½ and older bucks, many managers become interested in improving the third piece of the antler formula – genetics. For decades, biologists have debated the practice of improving antler genetic potential by culling or removing specific bucks with undesirable antler traits. The idea is by removing these undesirable bucks you can improve overall antler quality within the deer herd. This idea works well in captivity because you can mate specific bucks to specific does, but is culling an effective strategy for improving the antler quality of free-ranging herds?

First of all, what is culling? Some managers define culling as removing inferior yearling bucks with few antler points (spikes or three-pointers) or missing points such as brow tines. Others define culling as removing older bucks with a low number of antler points (8 points or less) or other undesirable traits such as a narrow spread. For this discussion, we’ll define culling as selectively removing bucks with any of these undesirable antler traits from any age class.

Much research has been conducted on this subject, often with seemingly conflicting results. Research from the Kerr Wildlife Management Area in Texas suggested antler quality could be improved by removing spike-antlered yearling bucks. Research from Mississippi State University suggested that yearling bucks’ antlers were more a reflection of late birth date and poor nutrition rather than genetics. More current research on state hunting lands in Mississippi suggests that protection of poor-antlered yearling bucks (those with 3 or fewer points) under the state’s four-total-point rule has resulted in high-grading, and has produced smaller antlers in older bucks. Current research on the King Ranch in Texas suggests that even aggressive culling on a free-ranging deer herd at the 10,000-acre scale has little impact on antler quality. Confused? Me too.

All of these research projects followed strict methodologies and had statistically significant results. However, there are so many variables involved within a deer herd and its habitat that it is difficult to control for each. For example, different deer herds have different population densities, age structures, sex ratios and nutritional levels (low vs. high). There are differences in soils, supplemental feeding programs, precipitation levels and countless other factors that play a role in a buck’s antlers. Therefore, the studies aren’t always comparing “apples to apples.”

Before you decide which study is most applicable to your specific location, let’s look at the breeding ecology of whitetails. For culling to improve the genetic potential of a deer herd’s antlers, bucks that are protected must be able to pass their “superior” antler genes to many offspring. Thus, these bucks would have to breed many does and sire many fawns. These bucks’ male offspring would require access to high quality nutrition to fully express their antler potential, and they would have to remain in the area for the manager to benefit from his/her efforts.

But do bucks breed many does? It had been widely assumed that a small number of dominant, large-antlered bucks sired most of the fawns. However, current research shows mature bucks don’t monopolize breeding rites. Even in populations with good age structure, yearlings and 2½-year-olds sired 15-30% of the fawns in northern and southern studies. Interestingly, some large bucks don’t appear to sire any fawns. In Dr. Randy DeYoung’s long-term study (over 11 years) bucks averaged less than three fawns per year (this is the number of fawns that survived to six months of age and were recruited into the population). There is also the incidence of multiple paternity. Two studies identified multiple paternity in 22-24% of multiple litters. That means one of every four to five sets of twins/triplets had multiple fathers! So, dominant bucks don’t breed all of the does and they don’t even sire all of the fawns from the does they breed!

Since many bucks each do a small amount of the breeding, and since does may breed with multiple bucks, it is impossible to control or even predict which bucks breed which does in the wild. Thus, it is difficult to control the genetic traits you select for (or against) by selectively harvesting bucks based on antler characteristics. And, it is difficult to improve (or degrade) the genetic traits within a deer herd by selectively harvesting bucks based on antler characteristics.

The good news is that we can improve antler size through our harvesting efforts. However, I’m not referring to removing specific bucks. Rather, I’m talking about passing young bucks so they can grow older and have the opportunity to express more of their antler growth potential. This improves the “age” factor of the antler formula and it is extremely easy to do. We can also harvest an appropriate number of does so bucks have more available forage. This, in combination with habitat management, improves the “nutrition” factor of the antler formula. Again, this is easy to do.

It’s important to remember that many deer herds have skewed sex ratios, young buck age structures and they exceed their habitat’s carrying capacity. In these situations, spikes and small antlers are generally caused by poor nutrition and/or late birth date. These parameters do not allow bucks to express their full genetic potential. We also need to remember that most abnormal antlers are NOT genetically based. Most result from injuries to the skull, pedicle, antler or body, and thus culling would have no effect on the antler genetics of the herd.

Let’s revisit the research projects. The results from Dr. Mickey Hellickson’s recent culling study in South Texas are likely the most applicable to the average deer manager because of the intensity of the culling efforts and the size of the study area. Mickey and his colleagues intensively culled the smallest antlered bucks in all age classes for six straight years on 10,000 acres on the King Ranch in Texas. When the study was over, the average antler quality per age class was slightly SMALLER than when they started! While factors such as yearling buck dispersal off the study area could partially account for lack of impact, it clearly suggests that even intensive culling on this scale is unlikely to impact genetics.

So, should we be culling “inferior” bucks? If they are young bucks, the answer is ‘no’ for most of the whitetail’s range because they may have been born late or have been nutritionally deprived. If they are older bucks, the answer depends. If you have a surplus of bucks and you really dislike a certain buck – regardless of age - then go ahead and cull him. However, don’t expect it to make a big difference in what you see for antlers in the future. He’s likely not siring a lot of fawns and of the ones he sires, the doe contributes half to their offspring’s antler quality. Also, about 50-75% of yearling bucks disperse one to five miles from where they were born, so an average of ½ to ¾ of his sons will leave the area anyway. Unless you’re involved in a trophy management program with a balanced buck-to-doe ratio, good buck age structure and optimum nutrition, I wouldn’t cull him.

Kip’s Korner is written by Kip Adams, a Certified Wildlife Biologist and Northern Director of Education and Outreach for the Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA). The QDMA is an international nonprofit wildlife conservation organization dedicated to ethical hunting, sound deer management and preservation of the deer-hunting heritage. The QDMA can be reached at 1-800-209-DEER or  www.QDMA.com.

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