2" Fletch Working Great

[Ragnarok Forge]

Hi Gang,

I posted a while back about trying 2-inch fletchings in a 75 - 105 fletch.  I have them on 31 inch Axis FMJ 500's with 275 up front. I am shooting them out of a 68 inch long bow that is 55 lbs at my 30.25 inch draw length.

I have to say I was suprised that the arrows flew so well on the first try and figured some negatives would show up as I used them over time.  I took them out and shot these arrows for the first time on a 3D range with Wes Wallace, Brock Wardle of Bull Mountain Archery, my wife and our oldest daughter last Saturday.

Wes had invited the wife and I to come out and shoot 6 months ago when we picked up our longbows.  Brock had the time to come along and the daughter wanted to shoot her Wes Wallace Spike (longbow) at her first 3D targets.    Everyone had a blast and Tricia and Morgan both shot well.

Ok, back on topic!  My arrows were flying true and perfect until the last few targets.  I noticed that the arrows were fish tailing,  after a couple of targets realized I was plucking fairly hard due to tiring out and loosing focus.  I focused on my form and started shooting them straight again.  So while the 2 inchers work great with good form, they will definately tell you when you form starts to falls apart.

I have to say after more shooting since the last post that I think for field points the 2 inch feathers work great.  I also think they help me know when my form is starting to fall apart, which helps me learn to focus better.  I am planning to shoot them for 3D this year.  

I think that with a broadhead ( I use the modified 175 grain grizzlies ) I should change it up a bit and go to two 3 inch fletch and two 2 inch fletch set at 90 degrees to each other. It will only add 1 grain to the back of my arrow, shouldn't require a tuning change and will increase the surface area on my fletch enough to give me good control on the broadhead and arrow even if I flub my form a little.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Clay,

Your experience mirrors my suspicions on tiny fletching—they work great if your form and release are perfectly consistent and if you’re not using broadheads. Fletching serves one and only one purpose, which is to stabilize an arrow. The absolute last situation where I personally want to skimp on stability is when I’m trying to put an arrow through an animal’s lungs.

A lot of people these days are loading up EFOC arrows with narrow two-blade heads to create an overkill situation if something should go wrong and they impact heavy bone. That’s not a bad thing, unless that person starts confusing making a bad shot with taking a bad shot (one is accidental, the other is irresponsible).  But I've never understood why folks would value overkill in penetration while trying to push the bare minimum with respect to stability. It’s like shooting super fast bows that are twitchy; they’re great for chronographs but not so good for accuracy.

[George D. Stout]

It's that  infamous line of diminishing returns Jason.  Some folks aren't happy unless they are dancing on top of it.

Yesterday morning, while coming out of the woods, I took a shot at a small stump....it was 93 steps from me when I walked it to get the arrow.  The arrow hit the stump about two inches right of where I was looking, and the blunt tipped aluminum bounced backward about fifteen feet.  The bow was a 45 pound recurve, with 488 grain arrow....5", helical, shield True Flights.
I guess I would have shot over it with 2" fletching 8^).   I suspect I will have plenty of power at thirty feet or so.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Clay, Jason makes a very good point. When you're working on those small fletching on your EFOC/Ultra-EFOC arrow your looking for the very minimum amout that FULLY STABALIZES the arrow. That means stable flight even on a bad release. That's why I had to stop at four 2.5" A&A fletchings. Because of a congenital bone deformity in my hand I've got a really poor release, and found that 4 fletches of 2.25" were not enough. You might want to bump those up to 2.25" or 2.5". If that's not enough, then keep going up in tiny steps until you reach absolute stability. Once there, any amount of flettching above that is just making more noise, creasting more cross-wind drag and wasting arrow performance.

Ed

[amicus]

Doc its nice to read your post. Im glad to see them. I really appreciate all your work and expertise.

Looking forward to buying you a cup of coffee.

Gilbert

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Gilbert, that sounds great to me!

Ed

[Ragnarok Forge]

Dr Ashby,

Thanks for chiming in on this one. I am recently returned to the trad fold after a 20 year hiatus.  I am an engineer by trade and have found your research very helpful in my quest for finding what will hopefully be a perfect arrow set up for the hunting that I do.  my next steps are to try the 2.25 and 2.5 inch fletchings, I also plan to try a 2 - 3 " and 2 - 2" fletch set up set at 90 degrees with the 2 and 3 inch fletches alternating.  

I am shooting Axis FMJ 500 shafts at 31 inches long with 175 grain grizzly broadhead with 100 grain brass inserts.  I am using the factory nocks with a 5 inch tape and 4 - 2 inch fletch right now.   I have about 21.4% EFOC.  I am shooting them out of a reflex / deflex, 68 inch long, 55lb longbow.  My draw length is 30.25 inches.  I am 6.4" tall and can shoot the bow all day long.  

I do have a question for you.  If I bump the head up to 200 grains and shorten the arrow to get it to tune to 30.5 inches the FOC increases to roughly 25%, will this improve penetration much or is it money ill spent pursing the extra 3 to 4 % foc?

John and George.  Both of you have good points and there is definately a point of diminishing returns.  The thing to remember is that diminishing return comes on both ends of the speed and penetration spectrum. What each archer has to decide is what they want from their arrows and then go about pursuing it.

I am presently on a quest for an arrow that I can be confident in shooting.  I want the arrow to be reasonably fast ( 160 fps + ) and to have a high or preferably extreme FOC.  The FOC is to help me out if an animal spins on me at the shot, or I flub my shot due to buck fever / bad form.    

George,  I admire anyone who has the experience and abilities that you have.  They are hard earned and I enjoy your humor.  I do have to say that I, and I bet most other traditional archers have neither your skill level nor confidence in our set ups.  I would bet a large sum of money that I am at least 25% more likely to make a bad shot in my shooting comfort zone ( 20 yards ) while hunting than you are.  I just don't have that much traditional hunting experience.  

The two inch fletching runs are a fun testing process to see if they will work or not for my shooting abilities and style.  I would bet a large sum of money that a man with your skill could shoot 2 inch fletchings and not notice a difference in your arrow flight at all.

Having said all of that, if we all just stuck to what works for someone else, we would all still be throwing spears with Atlatals and we would be still be discussing what stone head weight, single or double bevel edge, what shaft weight and materials would work best by smoke signal and scratching on the ground when we got together to chat.  

I am all for each archer shooting an arrow and bow that is tuned and matched, which they are fully confident in. Shoot what you want.  Just remember that some of us have not had the time to get to that point and really enjoy the quest for knowledge that comes with the trad way of life.

[freefeet]

Must be something to do with being an engineer, Clay.  I used to fix helicopters amongst other things, and love playing around with my arrows to see how they work and what effects tinkering has with the overall outcome.

It's good to play!     :D

[NorthernCaliforniaHunter]

What draws me to trad, more than anything else, is the "tinker factor". I love modifying, taking apart, and studying stuff. Plenty of hands-on in this sport! Now I can add feather dimensions to the list! HA!

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Clay,

I'm working on the Part 6 Update right now, and it's mostly about what the data suggest about the rate of penetration gain per percent of increase in EFOC/Ultra-EFOC. I'm still extracting and comparing the data, but it's shaping up to be really interesting. I can't yet give specifics, but I THINK what we're looking at is a progressively increasing rate of penetration gain per percent FOC increase. Is it worth the expense? I'd have to say I believe it is.

In the upcoming Updates there will be some data on a 655 grain (just barely above threshold)Ultra-EFOC arrow, This arrow was tested from both the 82# straight-end longbow and the 64# ACS-CX. (It chronographed at EXACTLY the same velocity from both bows. Getting it to tune with both bows was an exercise, but building out the arrow plate on the ACS-CX finally got it to work.) The outcomes were then compared to virtually every above-threshold arrow grouping having the same BH and matching, or near matching external dimensions that I could isolate comparable shot distance and imapct data for; including the other EFOC setups and the 'classic' super-heavy buffalo arrow setups. The results are pretty eye-popping. Yes, I think the advantages of going up in FOC would be woth the cost and effort.

Ed

[Ragnarok Forge]

When can we expect to see all the updates here on trad gang?

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Clay,

They show up everwhere they're posted at the same time (at least I send them all out at the same time).

The medical problems have slowed development and release of the current Updates, but I'm trying to get them out as fast as I can, but it takes time. There's a hunge amount of data, and I have to check and re-check every single bit of data and every single calculation, just to be certain that it's all correct. Once that's all done I find that I need to let them 'get cold' for several days, the re-read, re-check and then, if all is well and nothing needs correcting, they are good to go. Any problems or corrections, then the process gets repeated.

But ... if all goes well ... the 2008 Part 2 Update should be going out in a weeks or so.

Ed

[Ragnarok Forge]

Dr Ashby,

No pressure from me, just curious.  I know a lot of us really enjoy reading your results and look forward to the next installment.  I personally dig deeply into them and work out the science and math side of them to make sure I am understanding what your results are saying and how you came to the conclusions that you do.  I can completely understand taking the time to get all the details right.

Good luck with your treatment and recovery.  You are in my families prayers.

[twitchstick]

You guys are great thanx for the education. I do have some 2" razor feathers if anyone needs them.

[George D. Stout]

Once you find the "perfect" arrow, you still need to make a perfect shot; anything less negates the value of the so-called projectile.
Remember, a perfect arrow wouldn't have any flight issues, regardless of what you put on the end.  Perhaps we should try for excellent, before perfect...it will be more attainable.  And, that includes putting that arrow where it belongs; if we do that, then a lot of everything else becomes irrelevant.

Dr. Ashby, I hope you are getting better everyday; life is hard enough without those darned extraneous issues pulling in every direction.  When our backs aren't working right, it messes up the whole works....I know that for a fact.

[Ragnarok Forge]

Hi George,

Great point.

I shoot my longbow everyday.  I am working hard at improving my shooting form.  I have already passed up a couple of shots on animals that I probably could have made.   The key word there is probably and not certainly could have made.  I won't take a shot that I am not sure will hit where I am looking.  

I hung up the compound and looked to my past to find a simpler and more challenging way to hunt.  I have had the best hunting season of my life already.  Late season starts in three weeks, the elk and deer are in serious trouble inside of 20 yards.

This year it is 20 yards or less.  Next year it may be 25 or 30 I will just have to see what my skill level is.  I know that 30 will be the maximum hunting limit and it may be that I end up at 20 yards as my maximum.  I am still figuring that one out.