Pa Guys, are you seeing any deer?

[Tioga]

It's simply inconceivable to me that, according to PGC studies, Pa hunters managed to harvest 80-90 percent of the available 1.5 year old bucks prior to ARs. Yet, those same hunters, according to the PGC, can only manage to fill 30-40 percent of the allocated doe tags each year. It makes no sense. The figures and facts just don't add up.          :confused:        How can Pa hunters be so efficient at harvesting 1.5 year old bucks, and so ineficient at harvesting does?                 Somebodies facts are as messed up as the broken deer model that they used to estimate our herd at 1.6 million.        

[jsweka]

Ticks are getting worse each year.  I never use to worry about them, but now I sure do!!

PA has really changed since I started bowhunting back in the late 1980s.  And I must say that I use to have a lot more fun while in the woods back then.  However, I really don't think the regulation changes (antler restrictions and increased doe harvest)are totally responsible.  State game/forest land is generally in a mature state and if there is no understory, what are deer to eat except with the acorns fall.  Also, there is a lot more posted land and exclusive leases than ever before.  Thus, public land is getting hit harder than ever before and when you combine this with poor deer habitat, it's no wonder I/we don't see as many deer as we use to.

Yes the regulations have changed, but so has the habitat and hunting opportunities.  We still have much greater opportunities here in PA than a lot of others do across the country.

[ratgunner]

The PGC needs to log some of that mature forest.And I get really upset when I hear them talk of over browsing.They need to show me because I dont see it.I know one thing the future of hunting depends on the deer herd being healthy and abundant.I've been mentoring a 17 yr. old young lady this year and am surprised she hasnt given up...yet.I feel bad for her that we dont see more deer.

[Doc Nock]

John, I'm with you on this. When we didn't hunt doe for many years but 3 lousy days a year, we'd see tons of them. They'd circle our stands in gun season over and over. Knew we w ere there, but didn't pay us much mind... they weren't "prey" in those days.

Now we hunt them non-stop. Guess it seems to me that even the does have gotten like the bucks... either go nocturnal, or just plain gotten to the point where they know they're hunted hard and they have adopted the whitetail's basic behavior of hiding welland avoiding us stinky ole people.  

I'd agree with Tioga too, that there are some things askew in the numbers game.

But then John's words ring true again. We have such a "patchwork" of posted vs. open (available) land to hunt, nowhere I go is it far from posted property. Why would I hang in my living room if I scented trouble and saw strangers in there...I'd just go next door where it's safe till dark.

I've seen heavy sign overnight in areas I hunted from hour before to hour after dark and see fresh activity sign after I leave. Seems to point to nocturnal activity to me... and there were only 3 of us hunting a large farm and woods...but it bordered game lands.

Tween hikers, joggers, kids playing from the new development, horse riders and hunters, all the local deer, even those on the farm, just decided to go nocturnal, huh?

There is something afoot, but it seems that the deer have really wised up a LOT and changed THEIR behavior a lot more than we as hunters.

[Tioga]

I hunt the habitat. I hunt where there SHOULD be deer. Areas that are capable of holding good deer numbers. Areas of fresh clearcuts, areas of 5 year old clearcuts, areas of good growth of hobblebush, greenbrier, raspberry and oak regeneration. Oak flats and benches adjacent to heavy bedding cover of laurel. Makes no difference. Might as well be hunting mature timber. One thing I believe is that Pa hunters are an efficient lot. I believe that the PGC knows that Pa hunters will shoot until there's not a deer left standing and bank on it to appease the Audubon types. I don't think for one minute that habitat is as big a controling factor as is predators and high doe tag allocations and liberal seasons. In my eyes, if habitat were as big a controlling factor in the northern tier, we wouldn't have needed herd reduction in the first place because Mother Nature would have taken care of the problem in her own way.

  I see excellent oak regeneration where there's sun. I can take anyone to most any pipeline that crosses the Tioga State Forest, which is planted in clover food plots, and show you oak regeneration growing from seedlings to saplings with a few deer grazing the clover all summer and fall 10 feet away. Things is, walk 10 feet off the pipeline, and the oak regen is non-existant. It ain't the deer, it's lack of sunlight and the deer and us hunters are paying the price for poor timber management practices of the past.

  Most of us agree that we needed to bring the herd numbers down some. Especially in areas where the social carrying capacity was far higher than need to be. But to the extent that herd reduction has gone in the areas that I frequent is beyond neccesity and beyond being reasonable and I believe we are having the wool pulled over our eyes by a PGC that has been infiltrated by those that would prefer to cater to eco-terrorists that are more interested in watching trillium grow than watching a deer eat it.         :mad:    

I hate trillium.      

[BFinegan]

"How can Pa hunters be so efficient at harvesting 1.5 year old bucks, and so ineficient at harvesting does? "

There's not enough an "ego boost" in shooting does.

[RedShaft]

This topic is goin where i expected it to. I feel the same as most of you do. I do belive that the game comissions numbers were wrong from the begining! They never truely knew the deer herd population, thus when they made there estimates they were way off in most regions. then the green tag, extra doe tags, antler restrictions and all just put a hurting on em, give out the tags; guys are goin to shoot. I dont belive into the habitat destruction hype at all either.... and there are lots of hunters in pa thats a fact, and you need deer to keep guys hunting. guy want to see deer and take deer, esp for younger hunters who may get disgusted an quit all together. i know alot of people who have stopped hunting. they wonder why the decline in license sale... Duh!

As far as the antler restrictions, i have seen actually less bigger bucks than before, since the antler restrictions. i just dont see it workin, there were always good deer killed in Pa, if you dont want to shoot a small buck hold off for a bigger one, personally im happy with gettiing a scruff buck. im tickled!! i know alot of other do to. people fall into the hunting show crap on tv, where only way to have a good time and actually be happy is to shot a monster buck. Have any of you guys seen fred eichler? That man likes taking game big or small he shoots and is happy with what he takes dont matter the size. i really enjoy watching him! Gets so excited over taking a reg deer or doe or a jake turkey... Like me!  

[Jeff Mccarthy]

I agree with Tioaga, I am hunting areas where deer should be, not mature timber. They have just been pounded too hard and yes the PGC has used the hunter as a tool to deplete the herd. Many have the philosophy that it is OK to kill as many as legally allowed. Something must change or many young hunters will be lost. My 24 year old has only went with me twice this year as he sees it now as a waste of time with little chance of even a sighting. Unfortunately I can't provide him with much of an argument to this attitude.

[ratgunner]

I know groups of hunters drive/push for deer and dont see as many as they did. So even if they are nocturnal they will get moved during a deer drive.Yes the deer may be smarter,but they also arent there.

[khardrunner]

I saw deer opening day, but have been skunked since. I donno what my deal is.

[jsweka]

I agree that hunting on public land has gotten a lot tougher.  Growing up in Jefferson Co., I could basically hunt anywhere I wanted - coal company owned ground that was open.  I saw deer nearly every time I went out and it wasn't a matter of if I was going to kill a buck, but when.  I then moved to West Virginia to go to grad school, so I didn't hunt PA from 1997 - 2002 when the new regulations took effect.  When I moved back to PA in 2003, I realized how much things have changed.  And I'm not just talking about the direct effects of the regulations on deer numbers on public land.  The proliferation of posted land and hunting leases!  In fact, I can no longer hunt any of the areas where I killed bucks prior to 1997.  I never thought I would pay to hunt somewhere, but I am strongly considering it for next year due to my lack of success on public land.  Yes PA is starting to become like many other states where you need to own or lease land to have regular deer hunting success.

However, bashing the PGC isn't going to solve the problems either. PA is a patchwork of public and private land with high deer densities in some places and next to none in others.  The PGC has an extremely difficult task of trying to manage deer populations when they can't control access/effort on all lands in PA.

One correction to a previous post from Tioga - It wasn't that PA hunters killed 80 - 90 percent of 1.5 year old bucks, it was that 80 - 90 percent of bucks that were killed were 1.5 years old.

[BFinegan]

No doubt it's hard to attract young people with a smaller herd than years past. Don't forget no sunday hunting. Who's going to get involved in a sport that allready has a limited season and a limted number of day in the week to do it. I realize it's only one day, but it's one of 2 days most people have available to recreate.

I'm from PA and I think it's one of the greatest states and I've lived in more states than I can count off the top of my head, but the no sunday hunting is beyond stupid.

All right, I'm done ranting.

[Tioga]

Originally posted by jsweka:

One correction to a previous post from Tioga - It wasn't that PA hunters killed 80 - 90 percent of 1.5 year old bucks, it was that 80 - 90 percent of bucks that were killed were 1.5 years old.

Yea I stand corrected. Dunno what I was thinking.  :rolleyes:  

 

However, bashing the PGC isn't going to solve the problems either. PA is a patchwork of public and private land with high deer densities in some places and next to none in others.  The PGC has an extremely difficult task of trying to manage deer populations when they can't control access/effort on all lands in PA.
 

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Seperating private land doe tags from public land doe tags worked well in the past and would work well again.

[Jim Keller]

I was pretty excited about antler restrictions when the topic came up. I'm a taxidermist and I thought it would increase business. ( I was never happy with the radical herd reduction though). Well antler restrictions didn't help the taxidermy industry. Less deer means less bucks. Ask any taxidermist if the amount of deer mounts has gone up since a.r. What I'm seeing is more work from guys going out of state. One of my friends won't even hunt here anymore. He hunts in Ohio and Indiana. Coincidently, he kept puonding the does on the gamelands he hunts along with evertone else. Then got made when he couldn't see deer anymore. Go figure.

[Tioga]

Coincidently, he kept puonding the does on the gamelands he hunts along with evertone else. Then got made when he couldn't see deer anymore. Go figure.
 

In the beginning, I did to. Now I'm sorry that I fell into the trap and ashamed of myself.

As far as bucks go, there's a few wallhangers being taken in this area. I had mixed feelings about ARs. But, to be truthful, I seen big bucks prior to ARs and more of them.

[jbuck9]

I agree with most, but I do not buy into the antler deal at all, deer or bucks I should say need too be managed by age, and too many fellas watch too much TV, all these huge bucks being killed, so they can show off pics and sell more products and alot of fellas buy into it, I shoot does but I can say this Iam hunting in an area that has a great population of them , but then you can go down the road two miles and hunt and nothing. Big bucks bring big $$$$$$$$$ and Pa is jumpingon the band wagon like Il, ohio and other big buck states, land owners are leasing, Iam very lucky too have some frens who allow me too hunt there land and also waterworks land, I like too shoot big bucks dont get me wrong wh does'int
but Iam a hunter first not a trophy guru.

[Earl Jeff]

Deer are scarce as chicken teeth around here.

[ed burgholzer]

finally after weeks of not seeing much. nov.7th. rattled, grunted, bleated. some code blue and an 8 pointer came in like he was on a string..season over. i love the first few days ov nov....Ed.

[ed burgholzer]

finally after weeks of not seeing much. nov.7th. rattled, grunted, bleated. some code blue and an 8 pointer came in like he was on a string..season over. i love the first few days ov nov....Ed.