Glue for best bond on carbon to carbon shaft inserts?

[Jay Campbell, JD]

A few of us have been experimenting on building the perfect "Buffalo" arrow. Thin, heavy (1000 gr), extreme FOC (over 20%), and durable are a few of the characteristics that lead me to needing to glue 12.5" of a Cabelas SST 230 inside the front (point) end of a 30" Gold Tip Big Game 100.  Both carbon arrows. This produces a 1010 grain arrow with 24% FOC that bareshafts like a dart out of my 80# Black Widow PLX (250 gr of weights behind the insert, 125 gr adaptor, 160 gr head).

But, although one fellow has had luck with epoxying a partial shaft insert, others, including me, have had the partial insert come free with epoxy, or develop a rattle.

It has been suggested to try a flexible bond, such as with "Goop".  But, it has also been suggested that "Goop" cures by evaporation, which may be difficult in an enclosed arrow. It has been suggested that "Gorilla Glue" because it cures by reagent action with water, would be better. I'll be testing these suggestions soon, but thought I would get opinions from knowledgeable folks on glue bonds for carbons.

We are way past (meaning have already tried)weight tubes, other insert materials, Ipe and/or Purpleheart shafts, Grizzlysticks, Aluminum and carbon laminations, Fish arrows, salt in the shaft, etc. Just trying now to make this carbon to carbon bond as durable as possible, because this arrow is flying better than anything else I've tried, and I've tried quite a few things. THANKS - Jay Campbell.

[Pete W]

Rough up both surfaces and use 24 hr slow cure flexible epoxy.
 I use the stuff from Golf works for gluing golf club heads to carbon shafts.

[Jay Campbell, JD]

Pete: Thanks!  Found it on the Internet, and ordered some. - Jay

[Mike Orton]

Jay,
The best adhesive I've found for glueing up carbons has been a two part epoxy called "JB Weld".  It's used in the automotive industry.  Slow drying epoxy that seems stronger than the carbon arrow.

[Jay Campbell, JD]

Mike, Thanks - I'll give it a try. - Jay

[bm22]

i second the jb weld. i have never lost an insert or anything for that matter that i have glued with jb weld. and i can say that with many encounters with rocks and trees under my belt.

[Dan Worden]

Lock Tite's  "Black Max" a gunsmith friend of mine turned me on to it. Available at Brownells and most good industrial supply houses.

I have seen him "glue" a scope mount on a gun and use it.

[Dan Worden]

Loc Tite's description;
380 Black Max® Toughened Instant Adhesive

The original elastomer-modified instant adhesive. Bonds metal, rubber, and plastic. Excellent peel, impact, and shear strength.

Typical Applications
Bonding rubbers, metals and plastics. For use in difficult environments.
*******************************************

Brownell's description;

Instantly glue on shotgun sights, sight ramps or make fast repairs to vent ribs and beads with this modern, tough-as-nails adhesive. A fast-fix for installing rifle-type sights on plain barreled shotguns. Fast-curing cyanoacrylate, toughened with elastomers, provides greater resistance to impact, vibration and increased shear strength. Impervious to most common gunshop solvents and cleaning agents. Adheres instantly to properly-prepared rubber, plastic or metal surfaces. Flat-black color blends with most blued firearms.


<$8.00 at Brownell's

[hunt it]

Silicone is your answer! Flexible, won't harden and crack or make noises. I've tried it ans it worked perfect, you'll never get the piece out if you need too.

[Pete W]

Dan:
 I tried Black Max and it failed after a few months. At first it was good but became brittle after time. It is also very expensive.

[Dan Worden]

Cold weather failure Pete?

Bruce has been using for three years or so on his arrows with no issues.

[Pete W]

Not sure if it is cold or just age, but I don't use it anymore.

[Jay Campbell, JD]

UPDATE:
I ordered the Golfworks high strength, ever-flexible epoxy ($10 a tube). Overall, it may be the best solution, as it seems to have been designed to bond carbon shafts to golf club heads for high striking force applications.

But, while I wait for it to arrive, along with a few dozen new Gold Tips and components, I tried the Gorilla glue. I wanted to get the prep steps down anyway. Taking what seemed to be the best suggestions from the Net, I used a .243 bore brush on the inside of the 30 inch Gold Tips, sanded the outside of the 12.5 inch 230 SSTs, washed both with dawn detergent and water, rinsed, then swabbed with alcohol and let dry. Before asembly, I swabbed the inside of the GTs and the outside of the inserts with water, so there would be enough water for a reagent for the Gorilla glue.

I poured out a bunch of Gorilla glue and used a full-length SST to coat the interior of the GTs all the way up with glue, hoping that the glue will help hold the interior short piece in place and block it from traveling back in the shaft, in addition to the bond between the insert and the shaft itself. Then I coated the short insert piece and placed it in the GT, followed by the point assembly, which with 250 grains of 50 grain weights, the aluminum insert, and the 125 gr. adaptor, is pretty long. I wiped the excess glue, which didn't require any solvent to clean properly. Then comes the problem of "clamping". Gorilla glue expands as it cures, so the glue inside the shaft has to be kept to a reasonable minimum, but the assembly has to be "clamped". I placed the arrows in a 4" PVC tube on the floor, and put a heavy hunting boot upside down over the arrow fletching ends, with a 1 pound weight on the boot (which leaned against a table top). After checking that each shaft had tension on it against the floor, I let it alone. After curing, only the slightest bit of glue squeaked out of the tip assembly, and they all look flush and tight.

As you know, overall with a 160 gr head this makes a 1010 grain, 30", very heavy FOC of 24% thin arrow which is flying better out of my 80# BW than any arrow to-date. Bareshafts are flying at 20 yards as if they were fletched.

Now either Gorilla Glue for the next 2 dozen or Golfworks epoxy! The torture test has begun. Karen drove the Gorilla Glue arrows into a block of 4x4s three times while shooting in the back yard this afternoon. No damage or looseness so far. - Jay Campbell