Brass Insert vs Heavier Point

[cacciatore]

Like TJ and Guru I don't see a big difference within the 2 different set ups,but my feeling are that the brass insert type is more tough.By the way I use 100 brass and finish with a BH of 150-175 grs depending on the bow.I get the sensation that when the broadhead enter in the animal the friction,in case of hard tissues hitting,stops the arrow but the weight behind is still transfering energy.Nothing scientific just my experience.

[Michael Arnette]

I have found that a 50 gr brass insirt can be used instead of extra pt weight with no change in spine but the longer 100 gr. inserts do stiffen the shaft in my case because my shaft is trimmed short so the over hang at my draw will put the back end of the brass insert behind the edge fo the rest so they actually do stiffen the shaft a bit. This does not happen if the shaft is cut a couple inches longer than ones draw length to allow the long insert to effect spine.

[Guru]

Ok.....Sunday I shot the arrows and bare shafts described earlier....5 posts above....

 Just as I'd hoped, and figured,  like Skarcher, I couldn't tell a bit of difference in arrow flight or point of impact.  

I shot the arrows each several times, they both flew great and to the same spot.

Them did the same with bare shafts...same result!

I guess,maybe with a hooter-shooter and a mechanical release you might see a small difference.....but I sure couldn't.....

This all puts my tried and true Wensel Woodsman into the "game" at the Pig-Gig    

[spike buck]

I think this one's closed. Thanks to those who tested and reported back. I'm gonna stick w/ the brass inserts....James

[davesonic444]

I find the inserts will increase spline and confirmed this with stu miller's spline calculator.

[BWD]

I can't shoot the difference, and confirmed this by shooting in the backyard.

[LKH]

I measure the inserts and the brass insert only goes into the arrow 11/32" more than the aluminum.  It is slightly less than 1/2" longer, but that's all the more that is in the shaft.  

From what I've read here about how much cutting the shaft affects the spine, I don't think anyone would notice the shooting difference of two arrows with equal weight forward that had brass and aluminum insert.


That said, the strength and convenience of the brass insert make it the only thing I use.

Anyone need a few dozen aluminum inserts.

[MSwickard]

I've been doing the same as Guru.  My set up was 11 gr insert, 75 gr steel adapter and 160 gr point

Verses

50gr brass insert, 26 gr Al adapter and 160 gt point.

Basically 248gr v. 236 gr.  

Can't tell any difference.  

My opinion is to go with a steel adapter.  The Al adapter is the weal link in the chain.  I've bent plently of adapters but really haven't spilt the shaft.

Mike

[sbschindler]

I have a question about the longer 100 grain brass insert and stu Millers dynamic spine calculator and arrow lenght, the general opinion is that the longer insert stiffens the shaft, well ok when i put in the length of the arrrow should I put in the length of the arrow to the back of the insert and not the point, I know that the common belief is the back of point but thinking outside the box maybe back of insert would give better info ????????

[onemoreshot]

Hey Rob.How much point weight are ya using on your huntin arrows? Thanks

[Guru]

Guys, All I know is that I've never paid any attention to any "spine calculator"...not that's there's anything wrong with it, it's probably a good starting point....but...

I get out and shoot....that's the best way to test anything.

How that little bit of extra length insert(50gr. brass) can effect the spine in actual shooting conditions is beyond me and my shooting ability I guess.

The small "weight shift" in the two set-ups was my only question, and my shooting of those arrows/bare shafts answered that.

Written on paper maybe, but all of us on this thread that have actually tried/shot their two diff. arrow set-ups said the same thing....they shot the same...

Maybe it's different for the longer 100gr. inserts.I've never tried them...but if and when I do want to use them in a set-up, I'm not going to let a chart or someone tell me they will/won't work....I'll get out and try them myself.....

FWIW...
I've bent plenty of steel adapters, they're not invincible either...

Bottom line...build a solid arrow, with quality components, and get out and shoot it(bare shaft and fletched)!  Don't go by what others tell you or what you read. We're all diff., we all shoot a little diff...

Use charts and advice as basic starting points, but until you try something for yourself...you'll never know if it's actually going to work for YOU!

[George D. Stout]

If 1/4" of insert length messes up your spine, it was wrong to start with.  Spine has never really changed over the years, the only change is how we mess with it.  Guru is giving some good information...shoot and find out what works well.  If knowing percentages makes you happy, then write them down and peruse them at your leisure.  8^).

[Richie Nell]

I totally agree with Guru and George.  
I have never been too crazy about that cookie cutter calculator.  It wasn't even close to what really works with my set up.  
I think that each individuals shooting style, form and release is very underrated in importance and has everything to do with the quality of arrow flight.
Like Guru said...use the larger building blocks to get you started then get your fanny in your back yard and shoot, think, shoot, figure, shoot, tweek and shoot somemore.  Then you will know which arrow and arrow componenents work well when YOU shoot YOUR bow.  
THAT is when you can build confidence in your weapon and carry that to the moment of truth in the woods.

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by onewhohasfun:
There will not be any alum. on the business end of my hunting arrows. Too wimpy.

I'd like an honest answer on what you are basing that statement on. What you have 'heard', 'read on the internet', or real life experiences????

The reason is I've been using aluminum adapters and inserts since 1980 and from bunnies to bison I've bent only 3 adapter post on deer. All 3 on deer and the all died as well. And one a hog that also died.

I've bent a half dozen or so while shooting judos over the years as well.  And most of those probably bent cause the judo wasn't screwed on tight.

While I have only had little limited experience with steel adaptors, I have bent one of them also.

[davesonic444]

I had one of the steel adators break just at the broadhead.I never had aluminum do this in 35 yrs of hunting.

[buckeyebowhunter]

I have been contemplating this same situation. A few weeks ago i bareshaft tuned some cx 150's that i had with 225 grain points, and also 175 grain points, and then the 125's that i had always shot. The 125's flew nock right badly, the 175's still flew a little bit nock right, and finaly the 225's flew straight but it seemed like they nose dived quicly at only about 20 yards. I was hoping to get an arrow to fly perfect with minimal drop at about 20-25 yards. And then possibly buy some brass inserts at either 50 or 100 grns, and continue shooting my 125 grain muzzys. But im not really sure what to do.

[onewhohasfun]

I have experienced two bent alum adapters on live game bone hits. I know not a lot of data there. But  all my practice is stumpin with judos and old broadheads for past 20 some odd years. I used to bend or break alum. components almost daily. Steel and brass will still fail occasionally, but not nearly as often as alum. Plus I like the weight up front steel and brass offer. I am pretty hard on arrows. I destroyed 9 judos just this past summer and fall. Steel has held up better for me. Don't have replace bent parts nearly as often. When stumping never shoot at anything white. It's probably a ROCK!

[hkmp5]

Hello Howler,
I like the way you think!  It would be better if we all measured to the back of insert as you mentioned....however, there is no good way of knowing this dimension after the arrow is assembled.  The Calculator takes the average length of a RPS insert (0.9") into account whenever a aluminum , carbon or "other" shaft is selected.   When using a insert that is known to be longer (like a 100 gr brass) then simply put the extra length past the 0.9" in the footing length section and it will take into account the extra length.  If you think about it, a long insert or NIB point is basically an internal footing.  Just remember to enter tocorrect weight in the insert weight field and select "yes" in the footing field.

In the setups that I have played with using 100 grain long brass inserts, the extra weight of the insert offsets the effective decreased arrow length and the resultant change in dynamic spine is relatively small.
-Stu

[bshunter]

I have noticed the same thing...if I tune with a 200 gr point and then glue in a 100 gr brass and 125 gr head, they seem to be stiffer with the brass vs. heavy point. That being said, I now try and use saran wrap to keep my brass inserts  in while tuning.

[daveycrockett]

Originally posted by bshunter:
I have noticed the same thing...if I tune with a 200 gr point and then glue in a 100 gr brass and 125 gr head, they seem to be stiffer with the brass vs. heavy point. That being said, I now try and use saran wrap to keep my brass inserts  in while tuning.

Me too. Only the long 100's do this the shorter 50 gr. works the same as head weight alone.