Getting good arrow flight for newbies and oldies...the NEW problems?

[Overspined]

I have been a member here for a few years now and I have shot for 20. I have never seen so many posts dealing with tuning arrows and the problems folk are having! It is getting out of control (in my opinion! lol). The ashby method of EFOC seems to get people frustrated with tuning arrows to their bows, instead of having fun shooting. I have done this myself! Has anyone shot 300 gr points on a carbon shaft out of a 50# Hill style bow? Boy, without fletching you are going to see some crazy things. With fletching you will really notice some severe arrow drop! I am a fan of Ashby's reports, but I think newer shooters, and those having trouble tuning arrows might consider a few basic things. Consider balance. Loading that much weight (as an example) up front from a lower weight bow is going to be touchy and tough to tune. The more center shot, the easier, but consider starting with something more reasonable. I have found wood arrows more forgiving to tuning than carbon, and point weights of 200gr great for bows around 50#, and 150gr great for bows around 45#. I tuned some carbons out of a 55# R/D bow with more center shot and 235gr points and they fly great. My point is just that getting too far out on any parameter seems to make the whole process more touchy with every variable. If you don't draw to a consistent length, one arrow flies great and the next poorly. Inconsistent grip, finger pressure...the list goes on. Add a potential range limitation due to extreme arrow drop and you might just consider going with something easier and then working toward the more difficult to achieve. I have most of the resources to quickly change arrow set-ups and find that I consistently just shoot wood arrows, because they are so easy to get to fly great vs the constant micro-tuning I feel I have to do with carbons and point weights over 200gr. Just my thoughts to all of the HELP posts!

Shoot Straight

[rickshot]

Couldn’t agree more that much of this serves to distract new shooters. Although I also shoot woods, I have enough choices in aluminums to match almost any bow that comes my way. I can just grab a few different sized shafts, a few different points and have the better choices narrowed down with few shots, then narrow it further by the amount of penetration. Bingo! Now I can hand the bow to a beginner and some real shooting can begin.

It is really soooo very simple with a few different points and few different arrows in roughly the same spine range. I think what is really being proven, but perhaps not fully appreciated by new shooters, is that archers always have and always will tinker with their equipment. Myself, I don’t need another “calculator.” I continue searching for all the old charts…they were great. Rick.

[Covey]

I aggree totally, I don't shoot wood but I shoot aluminum. I tryed the carbon's with EFOC and the other stuff and slowly gravitated back to the good'ol aluminum. If I were a new shooter, it would make my head swim. Now I just shoot 2117's 125grn snuffers out of a 54 @ 28 bow. I'll just stick with what work's, if it ain't broke don't fix it!! Jason

[Jeff Strubberg]

Just to play devil's advocate, remember that;

1. This site exists to give out information.  Lots of questions are a good thing!

2.  You are not only trying to learn something new, but going against knowledge you already have.  It's always tougher to "unlearn" than to learn.

EFOC works, you just have to forget a few things and trust the results.

[James on laptop]

Tuneing is tuneing.Does not matter how the arrow is setup as far as foc as long as the spine is right.Many just don't know how to tune a bow in the first place.It has nothing to do with foc ect.They just simply don't know what changes effects what and what to do. jmho

Anyone that ever used Eastons tuning guide years ago never has trouble with any bow.When I bought my first bow (compound) they gave me the Guide as they did everyone else that bought a bow of any kind.You followed the instructions and tuned your bow.It does not matter if it is a compound or a selfbow things work the same.For those that seem to have trouble the best thing I can suggest is downloading the Easton Guide and learn to do it right and yopu won't see all the bs advice you see on those type threads as much.     jmo

[Bill Carlsen]

I may be wrong but one of the issues that seems to be plaguing those trying to try more FOC is that they want to add the weight up front without really understanding the need to increase arrow spine in order to get the best tune. At least that is my impression. To me, adding length or cutting the length of the shaft may not be the way to go. My carbons are way more stiff using EFOC than  any wood shaft that I would use with a normal 125 grain head out of the same bow with the same draw and similar length arrow. But, to reinforce the ideas already mentioned, a good tune is a good tune. I have found no difference in arrow flight with a bare shaft with EFOC than I do with a more typical arrow with a 125 grain head. Straight shooting arrows are just that, straight shooting arrows and I believe that that should be the goal. If you can't get a straight shooting arrow with EFOC then forget it. Straight shooting arrows always trumps any other variable when it comes to hunting and achieving acceptable penetration.

[LKH]

I'd really hate for everyone to be happy with what they have and already know everything they need.  Then I'd not have anyone to "chat" with over the dark months.  

We all discuss the same subjects time and again and I'm happy with that.  

Remember the civility rule of stories:  When your buddy tells you the same story for the umpteenth time, don't interupt him.  You'll be guilty of the same thing many times.

Info I garnered here has led to me finally getting great flight out of carbons.  Something I wasn't getting done on my own.

[wtpops]

Originally posted by Bill Carlsen:
 Straight shooting arrows always trumps any other variable when it comes to hunting and achieving acceptable penetration.

This last line by Bill is the A #1. Most the older guys (expereanced) know this, all the new guys should read it. If you can get this with EFOC then that is way cool, if not then stick with a straight shooting arrow no matter what the FOC.

[bornagainbowhunter]

I have been trad hunting for several years.  When I started I did not even know what EFOC was.  I knew what POC was and aluminum. I would put the broadhead I wanted to shoot on an arrow with compatible spine, then trim it 1/8" at a time until I achived perfect flight, and it worked well.

That being said.  I really like tuning and playing with my equipment.  I have some carbons with EFOC now, they shoot great.  But, I also have the same old aluminum shafts with a Zwicky delta 4bld that have about a 5%foc, if that much(i have never checked them).  I have killed tons of deer with the same dozen arrows that I bought when I got my first trad bow about 7 or 8 years ago.  Out of all of those deer kills, only 2 were not complete pass throughs.

Like has been mentioned earlier, it really don't matter what percentage of weight you have up front if the arrow hits sideways. Proper tune is everything.

[Jeff Strubberg]

wt makes a great point. EFOC will give you better penetration assuming all else remains equal!

EFOC won't do you a bit of good if your arrows are wobbling around from adding more weight up front.

[straitera]

Invaluable info taught & learned time & again to help folks, most always with a civil lid. Just what I'd expect from a close hunting oriented group.

[Overspined]

I am a fan of Asby's research...did I mention that? LOL I agree with most of these posts! I too like to tinker. If I were a newer archer or truly having problems, I would go back to the basics though. Work from there. I use heavy heads, heavy arrows, single bevel...trying to maximize the variables I can control. That being said, when I have played with carbons I have had nothing but trouble with getting great tuning results. I can get them, but it seems too touchy to be fun to me. I have even had arrows tuned..and then the next time I shot they weren't. Why, my draw length changes by just a little due to sore muscles or stronger muscles and suddenly they need more tinkering...I hate that. Wood and aluminum really seem like they are more forgiving in that respect. Anyone else ever experience this? Also, weight tubes just wreck my arrow flight, even the 2gr tubes. Well, not arrow flight as much as grouping and accuracy. I can't figure out how so many people use them successfully...Anyone else find these issues with carbons, and weight tubes as well?