Terry, I just wanted to thank you for your thoughts in this critical discussion. The young person that I hunt with has consistently made the bad shots connected with not knowing the true " kill " zone, no matter how I have preached. When I saw this thread I called him and directed him to our site for a view, " I really didn't know it was that high and forward " he said . Thanks for putting this young man on the right track, maybe we'll have some eatable venison next year. He's a better hunter than me, a good man in hunt camp. Thanks Jerry