Questions re: Carbon vs. glass

[razorsharptokill]

If carbon is stiffer and lighter than glass, why are more bowyers not using it to improve performance?

Also is there a supplier besides Binghams that sells pre-ground, ready to glue up carbon?

[James Wrenn]

Designs really need to be changed or built to get the most from carbon.Some bowyers have good products and don't see the need to change things for a little more perfomance.There are pluses and minuses with everything including the use of carbon.They are more bowyers useing it now so you should be able to find something you might like however.A good bow can be had with or without it so at least we have choices.

[razorsharptokill]

True.

[Curveman]

I just ordered a Border Griffon GL (glassless) with carbon lams longbow. What are the minuses to carbon?

[genghis_khan]

It does not work well under compression (weaker in compression than tension).

[R H Clark]

genghis,that is true but so is glass. I don't think there are any minuses in a properly designed limb useing carbon. The best bows I have shot used carbon.

[James Wrenn]

Most of the minuses I was refering to are r/d cost for a bowyer to develope a design that works with carbon.Building new forms ect.. when a good bowyer is already behind on his orders.When you are already selling more bows than you can make the cost in time and money would put the use of carbon down the list some.You would be hurting your business instead of helping. :)It is not really as simple as buying some carbon instead of glass for the next bow.It takes a lot of tweaking in most cases to get much benifit from it.Unless it gets to where glass is no longer available you will never see carbon in every bow out there.Many are simply not going to stop using something that works and has worked well for so long. jmo

[Bob Morrison]

Are you willing to pay $200 more to have carbon in your limbs and gain little or nothing in speed? Limb may or may not be more stable side to side. And not all Carbon is created equal.
Personal I'm shooting some of the Foam core Carbon recurve limbs, Also Bamboo core Carbon Backed and Fiberglass Bamboo cores and want to try some of the Foam core Fiberglass limbs that are out there already. I'm not so sure if you were to shoot them all blind folded you could tell which was which, and shot though a chronograph there won't be 5 fps difference. If your a hunter? paint any of the limbs flat black and you have a winner. Olmpic shooters I'm sure can tell and need the difference. Hunters 20 yards +- the arrow will be there and none of us can tell the differnce in 5fps at 20 yds.

[Curveman]

Done right you will pick up some speed and stability (torsional stiffness/less susceptible to torque) with carbon replacing glass in a bow. Done wrong, you can actually lose speed and stability. In terms of the cost it's like anything else: you don't need a 1K fly rod to catch fish but oh, the look and feel of one! It's funny though, I just ordered the Griffon longbow over getting the latest HEXV foam cored recurve limbs for my Swift as the new limbs would be $600 plus dollars. I figured the XP30's I have are just fine (also with carbon) and I decided applying the $600 toward a different bow altogether was more "justifiable" than just gaining a few more FPS, stability and speed with the new limbs. So, I guess I contradict myself but so what? No one says we have to be rational all the time-it's all fun!  

Y'now, I realize I probably will get those new limbs eventually-LOL!

[razorsharptokill]

Ok, well said all. Just the info I wanted. Thanks.

[Bob Morrison]

We must be half right?? We arn't losing any speed and gain we gain some stability. What Iam finding out there are big differences in the carbon you use. And the big thing is most will not pay the extra $$. some that due are real disappointed that they don't pickup 10FPS and it doesn't make them a better shot. It is a personal thing, and I try to keep the hype out of what I perfer shooting myself.(I shoot the best limb I can get, cost has little to do with it)

[LBR]

I agree with James and Bob.  

I'll add that in my (limited) experience carbon has a different feel to it.  I've drawn at least one bow with carbon limbs (no glass) that felt a good 10# heavier than it actually was (or at least what it was marked), and I wasn't alone in my opinion on that particular bow.  

On the flip side, I shot one just this past weekend that was all carbon that was very sweet, but I knew when I drew it it had carbon limbs.  No stack, very smooth, just felt a little heavier to me.

I've had several folks ask about getting carbon limbs in a Chek-Mate bow.  Like James said, what's the point in adding to the cost and wait when you have a super product and can't build them fast enough already?  Plus, in their testing, they just don't feel the customer is getting what they pay for with carbon, at least in their bows.

I'm not knocking carbon limbs or those that like them.  Honestly I was a bit biased until I shot that bow this weekend.  It has me re-thinking carbon limbs, at least in some bows--but I don't see me trading off my Crusader any time soon either.

Chad

[Curveman]

There are of course other design factors that play a role here so that it can't be said uneqivocally that a bow with carbon in its limbs was inherently more stable than a different bowyer's bow but I would think one can say that if the right carbon is applied correctly, then that bow would almost certainly be more stable than the SAME bow without it?
There is no reason that the same bow, with the same draw force curve would feel heavier unless it WAS heavier unless, it's possible that since the tip would torque less with the carbon with less than perfect form, that it WOULD feel heavier as it would be fighting your error more than a non-carbon lam bow would?
There is not a one to one correlation between weight and strength, at least not with modern materials. Look at the state of the art armor made for our soldiers-lighter, more flexible and stronger than the old flak vests. I went for carbon because I could experience for myself that you could twist the limb tips with most recurves whereas you couldn't with my Border. If the limb twists less from my imperfect pull/release on the string then that would have to make the bow more forgiving at least compared to the same bow without the carbon.
Chad, you probably don't remember me but you were VERY helpful to me when I was just starting out and I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank you again!

Steve