What do you mean by "Stable" bow

[mahantango]

I think Sid pretty well covered it!

[Sid]

Hud

You are spot on with your observations.  However there is an explanation as to why this is true.

When the Power source is in front of something being moved then it pulls it and when behind it, it pushes. Pulling is inherently stable and pushing naturally unstable take a car and trailer for example.

Well at brace height all straight and reflexed longbows at brace height with a continual curve along the limb in one direction, the string, the link from the limbs to the torsional force from the archers finger release) attaches to the limb by the nock and at this point it is fully behind the entire limb and so a longbow with continuous curve limbs pulls the string throughout the shot.

Take a radical recurve sometimes mentioned here as static recurve. At brace height the string attached to the limb nock is actually in front of the limb and so this type of limb pushes the string and depending on the cord ratio of the recurve (how big it is) the string may well be pushed over the entire length of the shot cycle. These types of bows have a reputation for being fast smooth and sensitive to shoot unless the Bowyer has taken extra special care to add stabilisation to the limb design to make the design work. Making a bow more stable makes it slower however if well designed and built it remains a very fast limb overall. For example the HEX5 due to the extra weight that the limb carries in the stabilising layers is approx 5 fps slower than if it did not have any.  But accuracy, forgiving of shooting variations, is paramount and so stability is vital more so than flat out speed. Fast miss and slow hit but fast hits consistently are now available!

Low cord ratio recurved limbs the string is pulled over the initial part of the shot and pulled the rest!

Longbows that have reflex shown at brace height only the very last part of the shot cycle and so are not as stable theoretically as a continuous curve types but tend stable all the same. Really short longbows suffer from stack in the main and more acute string angles on the fingers. Having a smooth release is more difficult and so increases the amount of lateral movement on the string as the string grips the shooting fingers more. Greater variation are experienced from a good release to a not so good one.

Traditional Flat D shaped longbows the limbs leave the riser in a straight line this places the bulk of the limb mass forward in the bow and brings the C of G of the bow forward towards the grip. The grip itself projects back towards the archer and so towards the C of G and so bow hand torque issues start to be seem HH eventually made his some risers central in the bow and not towards the belly as in earlier models if you read his books. This would improve the handling marginally.

Sorry for the late reply I was visiting Ann’s mother in Hospital and that’s a 2.5 hour drive from where we live and so I could not finish this during the weekend

[katman]

Sid, thanks, as usual a wealth of knowledge. Most describe stability as feel and shoots good. Your posts help explain WHY that happens.

[Mudd]

Thank you Sid for taking your time to help in educating us.
My thought processes caused me to have to read your posts more than once to "get-it" but it's getting clearer each time I re-read them.

I think about my definition of stable a little differently than some but it most likely means the same thing in the long run.

I love shooting bows that I don't have to give a second thought. I like to enjoy my shooting and if I have to concentrate on the bow I lose some of that enjoyment.

I can usually figure out within a shot or two whether I'm going to get along with a bow or not.

I have found that recurves with that kind of stability are not as available to me. Most of the older Bear bows seem to work out fairly well for me.

I went from recurves to r/d style long bows. It was getting easier for me to find that stability with these bows but their design variations from bowyer to bowyer made some of them harder to shoot.
One of the characteristics of some r/d bows doesn't even seem possible but sure feels real to my senses and that is perceived(felt) weight during the draw. I have shot some r/d long bows that felt as if the maximum draw weight was on my string fingers almost immediately. It didn't get any heavier out to full draw but it sure isn't comfortable pulling all the weight of the bow all along the length of the draw.

I started moving toward my love of long straight limbed long bows when I picked up a 72" n-t-n bamboo backed hickory composite. I didn't spend a fortune for this one either, its was $55. It made me aware of something, something that didn't hit me between the eyes but being a slow learner I guess it finally dawned on me exactly how much time I found myself picking up this bow to shoot when I was just wanting to give myself a treat or just unwind watching arrows fly.

There were a bunch of higher end bows hanging out in the shop at the expense of this ugly duckling. It made me decide to try a HH Big 5 which I loved. I traded it for a different style of HH since I couldn't afford to just add bows without giving up some others.

I almost feel as excited about trying out as many different HH style bows as I did when I 1st began this archery thing in my life.

What I need is about 6 months of unlimited shooting time with every HH style long bow on the market..lol  I think I could settle on some bows that I would love shooting and maybe, just maybe this journey would take a different turn. I would get to go on to level 2....lol

Sorry but like Sid said, its not easy to explain in just a few words. I pray I haven't muddied the waters beyond what's necessary to convey my thoughts/feelings about how important that "stable" thing is to me.

God bless,Mudd

PS: Sid prayers for Ann's mother and all who are affected.

[Friend]

I wish Sid had more time to chime in more often.

Thank you, Sid

[Friend]

Sid

Was this statement you made in your previous post correct?

"Low cord ratio recurved limbs the string is pulled over the initial part of the shot and pulled the rest!"

Just wanted to clarify this as being correct.

Thank you!!

[Sid]

Hud

Many thanks for your good wishes we certainly need them as Ann’s mom suffered a stroke on Monday and we dropped everything to get there and Ann has been at hospital every day while I try and hold the fort. We spent the weekend there.

Like every one here archery means everything to me and shooting most of all. Here the enquiry rate is exceptionally high and takes all my time and only occasionally do I get the chance to read the threads. I would love to participate more but you all would get tired of me, Thanks all the same.

Yes on reading my post I could have written it more clearly it goes with the Maxim “Never enough time to do it right but always enough time to do it again”.

Low cord ratio recurves those with open recurves lose their recurve action quickly and so most of the action is longbow with only a small recurve action. They store less energy as a result and stack quicker in the Draw-cycle. They are easier to make and easier to make reasonably stable.

To see how this works place an arrow on the bow mark the arrow where it protrudes from the back of the bow at the shelf. Now draw the bow but only until the string lifts off the limb surface, resting just on the nock shoulders and no more now mark the arrow again. The distance between is the recurve action and the rest of the draw is longbow type.

For conventional recurve limbs that you would find in ILF target limbs this recurve action extends to 20 to 21” of the early part of the draw  (this for a 68” 25” riser target bow) High cord ration limbs like the HEX4 and HEX5 these are the only limbs we have data on the recurve action extends to 25” and 27” respectively. More energy and smoother. The actual distance will vary with bow length and recurve design. The distance from longbow action is in the main pull but when the recurves start that changes to push the limbs at this stage are under paradox forces.

High cord ratio recurves need modern materials if the are to be fully stabilised and so the materials are expensive and they are more difficult to make and so more expensive. They are exceptionally smooth to draw but they do work you harder over the early draw but much easier over the later draw they can be 5lbs to 10 lbs faster and so you could drop peak weight and still have greater speed.

For example OL tested a set of our HEX4 limbs approx 6 years ago he achieved an AMO of 205 fps. Many think that 200 is yet to be achieved. Bows have got quicker and have twice the torsional stiffness since then and so the journey into bow development is as it has always been in it’s beginning with much more yet to come.

Very sorry if this came as a lecture not my style I’m a sort of intense individual and so without thinking my approach is direct  often for some too direct.

[Joshua Lee]

My head hurts. Just when I started to think I was beginning to understand, Sid had to go and post. Thanks for showing me how little I know.
Josh

[Mudd]

I have to read your posts more than once Sid but it's good information to have.
Thank you!

God bless,Mudd

[Hud]

Sid,
It is obvious you care deeply about the flight of the grey goose shaft and have a very good understanding of what makes an efficient bow.

When I shoot an older Bear Kodiak, from 1955 or 1957 and then a 1968 Super Kodiak, I understand why the company redesigned the limbs and handle. The early design has very good speed and is accurate if your form is near perfect. The 68 Super Kodiak has the handle (throat) ahead of the fade out, making it a "puller", less affected by torque from hand pressure; while the shorter limb and wider recurve opens later making it smoother for a longer draw and adding a little speed. The later design makes for a more stable bow and improves speed and durability for most of us. Although, there is loss of some speed, Bear stayed with the longer riser, shorter and wider limb design through their series of Takedowns; tweeking the design to improve stability, speed and durability.

We have not seen much change in speed in bows over the last sixty years, until the invention of the carbon products in limbs and the use of carbon arrows. However, the older I get the more I appreciate stability and durability in a bow.

Although, it is fun to shoot a bow that drives an arrow past the 200 ft/sec but I have grown accustom to the simplicity, durability and stability of a longbow. I will continue to shoot recurves and R&D longbows, but I know which one works best for me under most hunting conditions.
 
Thanks for the education on bow design, it helps to understand the benefits from the different designs, but I will never have your level of experience and knowledge.

Best wishes to your wife's mother for a speedy recovery.

[Sid]

Thanks to you all and sorry if what was written appeared involved.  

In bow hunting shots are for most under 25 yards and so it matters little if the arrow does 180 fps or 210 fps the ability to strike with accuracy is there. using a heavier arrow at the same speed well it just gets better impact forces are greater the bow is more efficient noise and hand shock drop even further and the joy of shooting in creases. For those like me who are getting on in years the chance to drop a few pounds and still have the performance on tap is another joy.