observation with?s

[broketooth]

this past weekend, i was fortunate to be invited to ride along with bernie to the sissapahaw august shoot. i had a great time.they used a fred bear scoring system, and the course was settup like a toughman course . all the shots were do-able but very challenging. well in 30 targets i managed to destroy all my cedars i had brought with me. i wasnt the only participant who missed and skint some trees. here is the observation part. most everyone i shot with were shooting carbons, and i was amazed at how durable these setups were. bernie only had one casulty... he lost an insert. woopee its just an insert. now the questions.whats the different advantages or disadvantages of inserts versus outserts? i also been watching some of yononindos videos on you-tube and noticed his stumping arrows. whats the purpose of the 2018 alloy over the insert area of the arrow i beleive he is usng beman mx classic 500 ive also noticed another tg'er here,timzeigler i beleive , using this same settup.  batman has introduced me to carbons last year but at the time i wasnt shooting a fast flight capable bow , therefore i wasnt very reseptive to them. well after witnessing  everyones equipment this weekend and the durability that goes along with it im ready to make the switch but i want to know more. any and all opinions would be greatly appreciated ruddy

[vermonster13]

The aluminum footing prevents cracking and chipping at the contact end of the carbon arrow(the place it is most likely to occur), especially arrows with the HIT inserts. I haven't seen an outsert carbon arrow for quite a while now, so inserts are what you'd need to work with.

[Clint B.]

I used to shoot fiberglass & they were the toughest things in the world with one exception. When you hit a rock or dense tree dead on it could drive the insert & point up the shaft & split it. I imagine carbon has the same weakness.

[Guru]

Originally posted by Clint B.:
I used to shoot fiberglass & they were the toughest things in the world with one exception. When you hit a rock or dense tree dead on it could drive the insert & point up the shaft & split it. I imagine carbon has the same weakness.

Yes, that's where the need of an alum. footing on the end comes into play. Not needed for all shooting, but for hard core stumping and such....

 With high quality epoxy(slower the cure, the better the bond) the alum. footing will prevernt the insert being driven into the end of the shft and mushrooming it.

It really makes for an extremely durable shaft.

Of course, if the middle of the arrow slaps something hard, the footing on the end isn't going to help  

[Doc Nock]

Fellow used to be on here taught me that techique of footing.

Many carbons take a glancing blow and where the insert stops, they snap. By external "footing" you provide much improved front end impact protection all around.  He claimed he shot the lightweight target carbons into steel and they didn't break of "blunderbus" the front.

I've just started using with 100 gr. brass inserts, chamfered on both ends, 2117's over GT Entrada. The chamfer helps them go in and come out of targets smoother.

Outserts, in their heyday, tore chunks outa 3D foam targets and were often "verboten" around my area for 3D shoots.

[broketooth]

i have another question, are you supposed to cut these shafts to accomidate your draw length or shoot the factory length when you order shafts. what determines your point load? is this where bare shaft tuning comes in to play ? how does arrow wraps affect spine in carbons?ive heard they can throw a shaft off balance... not meaning heavier from front to back, i mean balance when you look at the end profile of the shaft.. meaning one side of a cilinder is heavier looking down the end profile ... if this makes any sense

[JimB]

broketooth,you can leave them full length or cut them to make them more stiff.Tuning the arrow to the bow (see bowmaker.net on tuning)is a matter of getting the right spine for that particular bow.That is achieved by choosing the correct spine group to get you in the ball park,then tweeking length and point weight till the arrows fly true.

Front end weight increase weakens the dynamic spine.Weight on the rear end stiffens it.Cap wraps cause no problems,you just tune with them on.Mine weigh about 12 grs.Painted crown dip would be similar.

Making your side plate thicker,also stiffens the dynamic spine.Reducing thickness weakens it.

This may all sound very complicated but it doesn't have to be.The easiest weigh for me to tune,is to pick the right spine group arrow.You can get help with that here.Then I keep a variety of field point weights on hand from 100 to 300 grs.You could cover it with 100-200 grs.Shoot 3 bareshaft and 3 fletched.Just keep changing field point weights till the bare shaft and fletched group together.You will see the difference in arrow flight when you get the right weight.

Just don't get too set on a specific weight point at first,though you can get suggestions on spine group for a certain weight.Your bow will determine what it likes.

The tuning info on bowmaker will guide you through it.

The aluminum footing is for protecting and reinforcing the shaft from frontal impacts on hard stuff.I shot a steel pipe with one,dead center,with no damage.A small one in front of the nock is a good idea too.Carbons can still break if they side slap something hard but I have yet to have one do that.I have side slapped a lot of hard stuff with Gold Tips and have yet to break one in 3 years.I did shoot an antelope through both shoulders and he snapped it running.

With the aluminum footings,the carbons have been the toughest arrows I have shot,including wood,aluminum and fiberglass.The exception might be hickory.

[broketooth]

thanks for all the insight . based on what i have witnessed and the information volenteered ,i have pretty much decided that carbon is the way to go for durability and reliability. i think these to factors greatly justify the extra expence. i will be looking into this settup further. thanks guys... ruddy

[magnus]

I believe there is a tutorial in the how to section called bomb proof stumping arrow that tell you the steps to make one. Hope this helps.
Magnus