Dramas with making strings for Hills lately...

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Well, I'm fairly new to making strings, and I'm sure my work isn't the flashest, but I do get by.

However, making strings for my new 70" Redman and a young fellow's new 60" Bobcat has given us a challenging and frustrating time.

This is the first time I've made low-stretch strings for Hills, as previously I made a few Dacron ones without drama for my 70" Wesley.

The drama today and yesterday and last week was that when following the string jig directions (as I have always done), they were coming-out too short. This has resulted in some strings that were unusable, in which the bundles had sections (some quite large) in which they were like two ropes loosely inter-twining instead of that nice round unified appearance that it should have. We do the 7.5"/8" thing for the bottom and top loop respectively.

I fixed it for the young fellow (who needed a string desperately after he accidentally cut through the one supplied with his bow) by making a string using the 62" peg instead of the 60" peg. My string is still unsatisfactory, although it is shooting well, and I will soon be adding a 71" peg hole to the jig.

I have thought about the problem, and I wonder if it has anything to do with us having to make very small loops so that they will not come off the nocks? I imagine that the larger the loop, say for a recurve or a longbow with deeper grooves, the longer your string actually turns-out.

But I don't know why I didn't have this problem when I made Dacron strings for my 70" Wesley Special.

However, we did get shooting, and both of us were very impressed with the feel, the gentleness and the silence of this TS+ as opposed to Dacron that we previously shot. The young fellow's string is a sixteen strand job (I wanted to save a little time and actually get him a string to use, as he had tried and tried and tried to get a string to happen today; later, he will make twelve / sixteen job). Mine is twelve / eighteen string. Both are double served. These truly are quiet set-ups.

Does anyone have any comment or advice or similar experience to offer this novice string-maker?

The really cool thing is that there is another junior bowman hooked on traditional archery and bowhunting, and especially Hill longbows, and he is already learning the art of making strings. He'll keep trying to make some spare strings for himself over the coming weeks. Soon he'll be making-up his own Surewoods for hunting, as I taught him that at school last year.

[slivrslingr]

I'm still on the steep part of the string making learning curve, so feel your pain!  

[PICKNGRIN]

Protege Longbows (Tradgang sponsor)has a two part video that helped me alot.  He had it posted here on the site a couple of weeks ago.  It will help show how to get your string looking like one rope by putting some countertwist in the string bundles after making the first loop.  Watch the video.  As far as coming up with a short string, you can start out by laying it out longer or start your loop braiding further toward the end of the bundle ends.

[vtmtnman]

Sounds like you need to do some countertwisting in your string.When you make one end loop,reverse the string and twist the bundles i the opposire way you need to twist them to make the loop.Then you'll have a nice even string.I think the RMS guys posted a tutorial on how to do it.Helped me alot.

[Rob DiStefano]

ah, the joys of the flemish twist bowstring! hah!

as expected, this business of the flemish twist string has nothing to do with bow type, it's purely an issue with string type.  

there is nothing precise about twisting up a flemish bowstring.  the folks who can use 'precision' and 'flemish' in the same sentence are the master string makers who make up thousands of strings per year - namely, check out the trad gang stringmaker sponsors.

flemish 'string jigs' are only 'ballpark' devices, and even they will need to be tweaked because no two stringmakers will twist the same way.  

all those hundreds of twists are required for the integrity of the string and not all twisting is alike.  and, as some have found out, changing from more elastic polyester (dacron) to far less elastic hard polyethylene (hmpe) can drastically change the length require of a string - namely, hmpe strings need to be longer since they stretch LOTS less.  

keep at it - sooner or later you'll figure it all out!  

or move on to trying a real precision bowstring - endless.  :D

[wingnut]

What Rob said is exactly your issue.  I have the same thing.  I alway use an inch longer on the jig for my strings and mine aren't very good either.  That's why we have a pro build ours.

LOL

Mike

[straitera]

Timely Ben. I have bukoos of string but just waiting for the right technique. May be hitting you up pdq as I much value your opinion. Only used 1 ff string & it broke this year early in September. It was faster & quiet but worried me a good deal on my Big 5.

[SCATTERSHOT]

Insufficient reverse twist is most likely the culprit.

Countertwist, as stated above, will take care of the "two rope" effect. For what it's worth, I don't use a string jig at all. I take the string length I need, add 16" to that measurement for the twists and turns, and drive two nails into the wall at that distance. That then becomes your bundle length. I don't even measure the length from the end to start my twists, just a handspan, which is about 8" for me.

Of course, being from Down Under, it probably has something to do with the rotation of the earth or something, too.

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Originally posted by SCATTERSHOT:
Of course, being from Down Under, it probably has something to do with the rotation of the earth or something, too.

Yep, with the 3Rivers string-making DVD, they have a special version for folks south of the equator, showing how to make the string sitting upside-down. I've been doing that, so the problem must be something else.  

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
ah, the joys of the flemish twist bowstring! hah!

...or move on to trying a real precision bowstring - endless.   :D  

Nay, I think I'll leave the endless strings alone for the time-being; they definitely look like tricky buggers to make!

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Originally posted by vtmtnman:
Sounds like you need to do some countertwisting in your string.When you make one end loop,reverse the string and twist the bundles i the opposire way you need to twist them to make the loop.Then you'll have a nice even string.I think the RMS guys posted a tutorial on how to do it.Helped me alot.

Please tell me more about this counter-twisting. So far, I've made quite a few very tidy strings simply by untwisting the bundles after the first loop, but just stopping when they look good and straight. Do you go beyond straight, and keep twisting in the opposite direction? If so, how many turns?

[JEFF B]

Keep at it Bro i dont have that problem as i make endless loop strings way easy.  

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Originally posted by straitera:
Timely Ben. I have bukoos of string but just waiting for the right technique. May be hitting you up pdq as I much value your opinion. Only used 1 ff string & it broke this year early in September. It was faster & quiet but worried me a good deal on my Big 5.

I don't have a clue, but from what I understand, there should be no reason why an FF string should break. Where did it break, and what were the specs of the bow and the string?

[SCATTERSHOT]

You are correct, you need to countertwist the approximate number of turns you think you will make in finishing the string. I don't really count, but you will develop a feel for it as you go along. Not really sure why you haven't had this problem before, though.

[Oliverstacy]

Ah yes as Rob said the wonderful world of Flemish strings…they can be frustrating at times!

Every material can and will turn out different even if he same formula is used for each.  Material, strand count and loop configuration will change the outcome with the same peg hole used.  If you use a set peg hole for a 14 strand Dacron string a 14 strand TS+ will turn our longer since it’s a smaller diameter material.  

As VT stated back twist will help eliminate the cabling effect you described.  

Here is what I would do for a 67” string…it is what I would use but as Rob said the board is just a tool and each person will have a different outcome.

My board is a standard board from 3Rivers and I numbered the peg holes starting from the top closest to the stand count pegs starting at 1 and goes all the way down the board.

For a 67” 14 strand D-97 longbow string I’d put the peg in hole #4 and lay out 2 seven strand bundles.  I always put the darker bundle on the outside (right) and I hold the bundles in my right hand and twist with my left (I’m right handed and people wonder why but that is the way I learned).

Start with the longest strand measured to 8.25” and hold the bundles at that point…twist each bundle several time away from yourself and then back twist and repeat until you have 6 twists (12 color changes).  Straighten the remaining part flat and fold the string over so the dark color is out (consistency is the key for me)…twist the same way as above.  Twist each bundle away and then start to fade the ends out…after you have reached the last strand go past about 6 or 7 twists and clamp that end.  

I then put that clamp under my foot and separate all the strand up the full length of the bundle…you’ll notice the bundle will untwist as it goes up, this is where the back twist will help greatly.  Whatever way the bundle untwisted, go the same way about 25 times.  Line each bundle up at the 8.25” mark and repeat the above but this time make the loop with 7 twist or 14 color changes…this will give you a 12/14 loop string and will fit the longbow nicely (smaller loop on the lower limb).  Once you get the second loop finished clamp the string at the end of the fade.  Untwist the center section (with both fades clamped) so the bundles are all straight between the clamps and then twist the center section about 40 to 50 times.  Make sure the whole string looks like a barber pole (all the twists go the same way)…if the fades twist one way and the center is twisted the other it will not stay together and if you go to set the string you could knock yourself out.

You can twist the center section 20 times and then run your thumb and first finger up and down the string…this will help distribute the twists more evenly, put the remaining twists in the string.  This is where you could bust a tooth…hook the bottom loop in something round and hold with your foot and do the same with the top loop.  While holding the bottom of the string pull up on the top loop…this will initially set the string.  Measure it…if it’s too long add a few more twists or remove a few if it’s too short.

Write down what the outcome was…I’ve written down every string I’ve made in the last 8 months as it helps determine what configuration is needed for each material.  If the string was too long add length to the initial fade, i.e. 8.5” each…go the other way if it was too short.  .25” of fade with the same configuration will make the string about .5” shorter or longer depending on what way you go.

If you need more help PM me or post and I’ll see if I can help more.

Hope this wasn’t too confusing.

Josh

[straitera]

It was my 66" ntn 80#@28" Big 5. My shortest Hill but sweet pull. Just got into the habit of taking it everywhere when the string broke not so far from the serving. It broke a strand at a time & just sort of laid out flat. It didn't hurt nor shock the bow at all. Weird. Maybe I hit the string w/my BH? I broke 3 strings this year & have never broke a string before. That's why I bought a number of rolls of dacron B-50. Normally, I have my strings made w/fewer strands than standard. An older fellow, Jerry Commerford, has made my strings for along time. He's now retired so I have to make my own.

[Overspined]

I followed the directions from a flemish search I did a few years ago and made my own jig and have been making my own strings without issues. It took a few of course to get them to look great, and I changed from two to three bundle so they look professional. I stick to skinny strings now and just padding the loops was easy. With skinny strings there seemed to be less need to lengthen the string due to reduced stretch because of less bulk. I add another nail 1/2 the length I need now then I need a longer string and vise versa. Your first few will likely be good practice.

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Thanks, gents. We'll add that gem of over-twist to the memory banks and keep trying.