Q on rubs and scrapes~

[Lone Ranger]

I have finally been seeing some rubs and scrapes, and I want to know if Does will scrape?

and how long will a buck use a rub? Will they keep coming back to the same rubs? will they keep rubbing even after they have lost the felt?


L.R.    

[Charlie Lamb]

The answers to your questions are enough to fill a book... and have.

I don't believe does scrape but do play a part in their location.
A buck will use a rub from post velvet (most "rubs" are not made to remove the velvet. They are territorial and or used as sign posts along travel routes.

I suspect more knowledgeable guys will fill in the rest of the book.

[KodiakMag]

I've seen a doe "scent" a scrape before. A buck will use the same rub through out the year. I seen a buck rub off his velvet and rub into the post-rut. Also, bucks will use the same rubs year after year. Sometimes you can tell by the scars on the tree the year before and the fresh ones overlapping them. And to the last one again yes. Bucks rub a lot in the rut.

[Ryan Rothhaar]

All scrapes and rubs are not created equal.  A secondary or boundary scrape may or may not have much doe activity on it and also may not be used more than once.  Primary or rut scrapes will generally have continued activity and are usually started by does and hit by multiple does and bucks.  I can't recall seeing a doe "scrape" or scratch the ground, but I've seen LOTS of them urinate/defecate and work the "licking branch" over primary scrapes.  The "licking branch" is a deposit for facial glandular scents - pre orbital, forehead, etc.  A good primary scrape is like the fire hydrant every dog in the neighborhood has to pee on.  I believe the does define where primary scrapes will be.

I feel 99% of rubs are only good to tell you where a deer was.  Alot of the better (bigger) rubs during the rut seem to be made by either a buck "standing over" a doe and venting his aggression or a satellite buck venting frustration that he is lower on the pecking order.  The exception are the good "signpost" rubs that get hit year after year - in my area these are most often cedar trees.  I use these as a signal of when a good buck moves through an area or starts to get active.  I've never had any action actually sitting over rubs, though John Hale, a bowhunter from southern Indiana that is one of the best whitetail hunters I've ever met, extensively uses rublines to determine buck travel patterns.  Sometimes the information signpost rubs can give is key - one area I used to hunt in Ohio I would watch a specific signpost tree and get in that woods when it was hit - I consistently saw or killed a good buck wihtin 2-3 days of that tree getting hit for several years.  I can remember the day that tree got rubbed each year between 1989 and 1993 - it was that important to me that I still recall it.

I guess I've got a problem......

Good luck

Ryan

[Lone Ranger]

wow lots of info- well the florida deer here are marginal compared to the rest of the world. I am just trying to get a read on them- about the only thing I can tell ya is that they are moving during the day some, but their travel routes are escaping me- on the roads, then not on the roads for 2 days? then back on the roads. I will see a scrape here or a rub there but its not consistent. I do however have a scrape that has been hit twice now-(3 days apart) though its not an area I want to hunt.


any advice?  the acorns havent dropped yet the grapes have all ready been eaten and there are palmetto berries everywhere. In short: food is abundant.  I walk between 3 and 4 miles twice a week in this management area and think I have a good "feel" for the area. I wish I had about 3 trail cameras! lol


L.R.

[Pope Co.]

"What those guys said"

I've been waiting a long time to say that. I especially agree with what Ryan said.

I'll try to add to what has been said. First of all you have to think about what kind of country whitetail deer evolved in (large mature forest) and how many deer there were. There were a lot less deer a few hundred years ago, plus the travel corridors, bedding, feeding, staging, loafing areas were not restricted by agriculture, cities, subdivisions, etc. They did not just trip into each other. They had to find a way to communicate/leave messages. They could not speak and they could not leave a post-it note on the fridge. What did they have to use for communication? They had scenting and visual capabilities. Scrapes primarily fall into the scenting category and rubs fall primarily into the visual category. As the whitetail deer is bebopping through his hood he wants to let his posse know where he hangs out (visual/rub line) he also wants to let the girls know who he is (scent/scrape).

There are other things that go on at these two areas that we probably don't fully understand yet. Like one of the guys above said he saw a buck rubbing out of pure aggression. I tend to think it is out of sexual frustration. I saw a little six pointer work on a series of saplings for over an hour and his velvet was gone before he started. I've seen does scent check rubs. I've seen does urinate on a scrapes, paw around in them a little, and scent check the ground and tree limbs that are above the scrape. These are a few examples of communication but what else might be going on.

These are some of the reasons I love whitetails. I like to study these mysteries and then I really feel fortunate if I see for myself what I've studied. Or if I see a strange behaviour that I haven't seen before I like to go and find out why that behaviour is there.

Sorry I got a little long winded there.

[OS]

I have to agree wtih all said above.  We have filmed does pawing in scrapes and working the licking branch.  I love creating mock scrapes and creating a breeding or primary scrap in the areas I hunt.  and in my opinion the more deer you have working a scrape the better chance you have of seeing dandy bucks or any bucks during legal hunting hours.  As for rubs as stated I have seen them re-worked annualy.  I have not seen them reworked over the same year by the same buck.  I have seen bucks make rubs for senting purposes (IMO) rubbing than sniffing the tree and rubbing some more and I have seen other deer scent check these rubs.  Yes we have had Mock rubs work to attract deer.  I have also seen a buck tear into any branch that touched his face or neck while walking through with ears laid back in agression.  This is a GREAT Questions and Lots of GREAT info :-)

[Shawn Leonard]

Ryan knows his stuff, I have actually seen does urinate in a scrape and than paw at it as well. They do not fling dirt and leaves like a buck but will work the scrape. I too have seen signpost rubs and they are hit year after year. I have seen several fenceposts actually worn thru with rubs. Shawn

[Barry Wensel]

Ryan is right on... per usual. BW

[KellyG]

Rubs I have never had any luck sitting over, I have set over scraps and made them and had deer use the ones I have made. I put one in front of my son's stand, just out of his range and a small 6 point then a 8 would use it but they would go off on a different trail that did not lend them any closer. I used the artificial Tinks stuff. the next year I could not find it and just used doe pee to start it and it worked the bucks would make it bigger.
The ones I watch would be used from heck mid sept to late Dec or later. I know for they would move snow off them long after the rut was over.
So if you have a good trail and but no good scrap or sign of bucks make a scrape and see. It works. Neither of us took a buck over them but I passed on a small 6pnt took everything I had.

[hill boy]

The window for a rub line is short.As the rut progresses they will create new habits and work different areas,I have killed bucks on rub lines but it's when they are first getting active and in my experience its over in a week or two.

[Zbone]

Funny, that Ryan brought up cedar trees which are  uncommon in my area but I know a place locally that has around a dozen or so sporadically growing on a property and every one of those shrubs to bigger trees have been hit my rubbing bucks.


Don’t know if these cedars grew wild or were planted but some of these trees a buck or bucks went way out of their way to hit…8^)