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Author Topic: Is 7.6 gpp too light?  (Read 1144 times)

Offline sticbow

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2011, 06:10:00 PM »
Javi  
        :bigsmyl:

Offline JamesKerr

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2011, 07:20:00 PM »
The bottom line is it is to light for your bow. The safest arrows for a bow are 8gpp and above.
James Kerr

Offline LBJOE

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2011, 07:28:00 PM »
I hate to ask this but why do the arrows say 5575 if that is not the actual weight  of the bows they are to be shot from.  Here is that physics forum post
 http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-195119.html

Offline Friend

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2011, 08:00:00 PM »
Is 7.6 gpp too light?

From a penetration stand point, perform a search for the applicable polls which address perferred gpp.

The information will likely reveal that 1% may agree and that 99% disagree. This way, you will have reviewed for yourself the the general thoughts from a andequate representative sample.
>>----> Friend <----<<

My Lands… Are Where My Dead Lie Buried.......Crazy Horse

Offline Bobaru

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2011, 10:29:00 AM »
Friend writes:

"Is 7.6 gpp too light?

From a penetration stand point, perform a search for the applicable polls which address perferred gpp.

The information will likely reveal that 1% may agree and that 99% disagree. This way, you will have reviewed for yourself the the general thoughts from a andequate representative sample."

I saw the poll in question.  I found it interesting.  However, that doesn't answer the question "Is 7.6 gpp too light?"  the poll only answers the question "what weight arrows are people hunting with?"  Even so, the poll can be instructive for new people to guide them on what arrows they may decide to use.  

However, the original question was from a new trad hunter who already had an arrow, 7.6 gpp, and wanted to know if that arrow would damage his bow, or have insufficient penetration.  He already knew that the arrow was the best flying arrow of all he'd made up. And, if I recall correctly, that person came back and said, well, no, penetration wasn't really an issue either - just bow damage.

So, there's been tons of stuff written here that isn't really close to answering his question, all geared toward pointing people to their own personal preferences.  That's normal.  

I would suggest that, if Kenny New likes the way the arrow shoots, likes the way his arrow penetrates, he should keep shooting it because I'm not aware of any evidence that he will damage his bow.  In fact, I've asked on these boards for evidence.  I haven't gotten any.  I mean good evidence that would point to the problem of a 7.6 gpp arrow damaging that bow. There is none!  

I certainly don't want to tell the man how to run his life.  The poll is good for him because it merely says "hey, this is what others are doing."  As far as damage, I think it would be reasonable to say, "some have suggested damage will occur, others aren't so sure, and use your own best judgment becuase there's really no data out there on 7.6 gpp versus bow damage.

And, maybe he can come back with some stories of his successes and failures and lessons learned.  

The only one on here who has posted some "data" is JimB.  Bravo!  Most people have no interest in data, it seems.  I mean, there's nothing wrong with saying "I shoot arrow 'A', and it works for me."  But, that's completely different from "Will arrow 'B' work also?"  or "Will arrow 'B' damage my bow?"

One guy says he hates statistics.  Well, okay.  But, others may be interested in a methodology for discriminating between the effectiveness of different things, arrows in this case.  Statistical analysis is the only, not preferred, but only way to do that.  

Here's what I wonder: since only 1% of archers shoot arrows less than 8 gpp, how is it that so many people know how inferior those arrows are?  I mean, can one really know if one doesn't regularily use them?  

The reason I ask this is because, as I have been writting this stuff, I've noticed that the heavy arrow people have never shown an interest in knowing what results people get with light arrows.  And, when some evidence does get out there, that evidence is discounted, or worse, ridiculed.  That's certainly fine with me.  But, it also doesn't add to the wealth of information on archery that people come to this forum for.

Finally, the write up on this tread about Fred Bear is great.  I really enjoy reading that.  There is nobody deserving more respect in bowhunting than Fred. But, this is 2011 not 1943.  There has been many changes in materials science since then.  And, it occurs to me that in 1943, Fred wasn't stuck in the past, say 1920.

In addition, even though Fred may have had a personal preference, I wonder if he would have been adamantly against the different personal preferences of others, or whether he would have encouraged others and seen how their individual decisions have panned out?  

So, I say to Kenny New, go ahead and shoot your arrows.  Others shoot heavier arrows without problem.  And still others shoot lighter arrows without problems.  I fall in both categories.  And, I have taken large game with arrows lighter than his with no problems.  I've taken game with arrows heavier than his, agian, with no problems.  And, I have yet to damage a bow.  I will tell you if I do.

Good luck.
Bob


 "A man has to control himself before he can control his bow." Jay Massey

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2011, 11:22:00 AM »
I would suggest that, if Kenny New likes the way the arrow shoots, likes the way his arrow penetrates, he should keep shooting it because I'm not aware of any evidence that he will damage his bow. In fact, I've asked on these boards for evidence. I haven't gotten any. I mean good evidence that would point to the problem of a 7.6 gpp arrow damaging that bow. There is none!

There is a good reason why the bowyer that builds the bow recommends a 8gpp and above arrow weight to stand behind his warranty.

I'm going to try and give you some facts that will explain why this is. Whether you deem this as "Good evidence" i have no idea.

First of all i base my "facts" on testing bows I've built myself and others I've had here in the shop as well. the easiest way to explain this is watching what happens with your own eyes, but i'll attempt to explain it verbally.

In order to harvest the stored energy in any bow, that energy needs to be transferred to the arrow shaft. You will find a wide margin of bows with different efficiency out there too. to transfer the most energy to the bow, the limb needs to stop dead without flopping around.  the reason you see a higher yield of momentum in a 45 pound bow shooting 600 grains is that the bow has become more efficient because it is transferring a much higher percentage of stored energy to the shaft.

as the draw weight of a bow goes up, and the arrow shaft weight goes down. typically less energy is actually transferred to the shaft. This is where the damage is done that effects longevity of a bow shooting light weight arrows.

The bow still needs to stop the mass weight of the limbs after the arrow leaves the string. With a light weight arrow, the force that goes into the outer limbs and the tips is much higher because it's transfering less energy to the shaft.

 in order to build a bow of hunting weight that shoots lighter weight arrows it requires the mass of the outer limb to be reduced, and the correct pre-load to stop the limbs clean is obtained so more energy is transferred to the shaft. the brace height is critical to maintain the tautness of the string, or what bowyer's call pre-load, to make sure that limb is stopping clean.

btw... that noise you hear running a bow at low brace ht. can't be doing the bow any good.

Here lies the problem.... if a bowyer designs a bow and recommends a 7.5 to 8" brace height, and asks that you use no less than 8gpp to be covered under warranty. it means that if you shoot 7.6 grains at a 7" brace, the outer limbs are going to take a beating, and the longevity of the bow will be shortened dramatically. This is especially true of bows  55 pounds and above.


look at the limb tips on these film clips. you can see what happens to these limbs after the shaft has left the string.


there are a bunch of film clips you can look at here. and my intention is not to compare bows... but to show some folks here what's going on in slow motion.....

   

Offline Javi

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2011, 11:57:00 AM »
Kirk, I hope this gets through to the new archers on the forum... I hate to see new folks get the idea that light arrows do no harm to bows.. it may not happen today or even this year but eventually the damage will add up to limb failure..
Mike "Javi" Cooper
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Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2011, 01:20:00 PM »
This was my intent Javi. They do build target quality bows that are designed for lighter weight arrows, but typically these are lighter draw weight bows under 50 pounds.

I'm a firm believer in the 9-10 gpp for hunting, and dropping back to 8gpi for 3D is good sport when you are shooting longer distances.....

but i too, will not warranty a bow of mine if you choose to shoot lighter shafts at lower brace heights. it's just too darn tough on a bow.

Offline Kenny New

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2011, 01:22:00 PM »
Well guys, I just got off the phone with the folks at Bob Lee Archery. I was told that 7.6 gpp is perfectly acceptable.  The guy I talked to said " at 7.6 gpp your bow is not going to fly apart, I wouldn't be at all concerned " . He also said that his setup is only slightly more at 8.3 gpp.

As far as those who contend that 410 grains is too light for hunting and that you need at least xx weight arrow, I wonder how many that have made less than perfect shots on game and recovered the animal, can prove that a lighter weight arrow would not have been just as effective.

I know from my sons experiences that 435 grains from a 45 lb recurve will effectively take deer so, I am pretty sure I don't have anyting to worry about from a penetration standpoint.

I my compound days, I have made bad shots with heavy arrows and with light arrows. The outcome was the same in both, an unrecovered animal.

Offline Kingstaken

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2011, 01:53:00 PM »
Your fine with that arrow....Like everything engineered in the world there are safety factors built-in that far exceed the bows material faiure.. It's not like your anywhere close to dry firing your bow..
Amazing how many experts there are out in the world..
"JUST NOCK, DRAW AND BE RELEASED"

Offline Javi

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2011, 02:02:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kingstaken:
Your fine with that arrow....Like everything engineered in the world there are safety factors built-in that far exceed the bows material faiure.. It's not like your anywhere close to dry firing your bow..
Amazing how many experts there are out in the world..
Yes it is...  :goldtooth:
Mike "Javi" Cooper
TBoT Member

Offline Bobaru

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2011, 02:50:00 PM »
Kirk, good post.  

Boeing spends millions of dollars trying to find out failure on oscilling wings, and plan that into their design and maintence cycles.

Unfortunately, I don't think any bowyers have that kind of money to spend finding out the failure rates of their products.  So, like yourself, you simply give it your best guess.  

On my Blacktail, I shoot heavier arrows than my Howett Hunter.  But, truthfully, that's mostly because the heavier arrows shoot better.  And, for me, at the end of the day, if either bow fails, well, ...  it fails.  I'll bet my Hunter will go 100,000 arrows at 7.0 gpp.  I'm about a quarter of the way there.  I'll let you know.  

But, there's a problem.  If it does fail, I won't know for absolutely sure the reason ...  although I'm sure there are "experts" here who would be willing to tell me.

Have a good day, ladies and gentlemen.  It's been fun.

And, Kenny New:  I hope you do well with your set up.  Hunting trad is the best blast I've had that didn't involve jumping out of airplanes.
Bob


 "A man has to control himself before he can control his bow." Jay Massey

Offline Javi

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2011, 03:02:00 PM »
Truth is a 20lb bow shooting a 100 grain arrow with a field tip on it will kill a deer with the perfect shot.. Don't see many folks in the woods with that set up do you..  :D

No one said your bow was gonna explode in your hands at the next shot, but shooting a light arrow will shorten the life of the bow... the question is how much and how long... and of course do you care..

Can I prove my 12.5 GPP arrow will penetrate better than a 7.6 GPP arrow will... I think so, at least I have to myself and a few hundred students over the years.

Can I prove that my 12.5 GPP arrow is quieter out of a bow than a 7.6 GPP arrow... yep again

Can I prove that my 12.5 GPP arrow is more stable in the wind than a 7.6 GPP arrow... again I reckon so..

The laws of physics really do apply to archery...

Can I make you want to use a 12.5 GPP arrow instead of a 7.6 GPP arrow... evidently not...   :knothead:  

Y'all have a great day... I am and I can prove it..  :goldtooth:
Mike "Javi" Cooper
TBoT Member

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