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Author Topic: Weak or waaay too stiff?  (Read 502 times)

Offline Shan

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Weak or waaay too stiff?
« on: December 19, 2011, 05:56:00 PM »
I hate to involve everyone with my tuning issues but I cant seem to figure this one out.........

TACKLE
Im shooting a Predator Hunter 60@28. My draw is 29in. Arrows are 30" Gold Tip Hunter Black 7595. I have a 100gr insert and a 125gr point. Also 3x4" feathers.


RESULTS
Im bareshaft tuning. Two fletched shafts and two bare shafts. I consistantly group the fletched shafts together and the bareshafts together but about a foot to the right and usually about 8" low of the fleched shafts (the best i could get after playing with nocking point).


I have 175gr points and they seemed to act the same as the 125s. 100gr also acts the same. What should i do? I dont know if it is actually weak or if it is soo stiff that it is showing weak. What do you more exp. members think I should try next?
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Offline drewsbow

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2011, 06:02:00 PM »
for a right handed shooter it would look weak to me , I would try to remove the brass and go with the stock insert and see what happens. Drew
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Offline Shan

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2011, 06:12:00 PM »
yep I am right handed. what do you guys make of the nocking point?


I just placed an order for a test kit from 3 rivers
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Offline drewsbow

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2011, 06:13:00 PM »
How tight are they on the string ?
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Offline Gentry

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2011, 06:16:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by drewsbow:
for a right handed shooter it would look weak to me , I would try to remove the brass and go with the stock insert and see what happens. Drew
X2
Gary Gentry
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Offline Rossco7002

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2011, 06:18:00 PM »
How far away are you shooting from?
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Offline frankwright

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2011, 06:53:00 PM »
In my experience with GT and several other carbon shafts, you are waaay overspined.
Get your hands on a 3555 which will probably be what you need but try a 5575 also.

Many are now finding the 1535 GT shafts fly well out of bows up to 50 pounds. Especially Gold Tip but most all carbon shafts are spine listed way too high for a traditional shooter and probably a wheelie shooter too.

Offline Looper

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2011, 07:06:00 PM »
Id say a 5575 would work, but not a 3555. It would be incredibly light with the correct point weight.

Offline 30coupe

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2011, 07:15:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by frankwright:
In my experience with GT and several other carbon shafts, you are waaay overspined.
Get your hands on a 3555 which will probably be what you need but try a 5575 also.

Many are now finding the 1535 GT shafts fly well out of bows up to 50 pounds. Especially Gold Tip but most all carbon shafts are spine listed way too high for a traditional shooter and probably a wheelie shooter too.
Same here. I end up with arrows WAAAAY to heavy to get GTs to fly well. Even the 3555s are stiff buggers. I had the same experience with Carbon Express stafts. Beman ICS Bowhunter 500s work better for me, but with a 60# bow, you'd probably need 400s.
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Offline Troy spear

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2011, 07:34:00 PM »
STIFF

Offline Gentry

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2011, 07:44:00 PM »
Gary Gentry
Cari-bow Wolverine T/D 62@28

Offline SL

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2011, 08:44:00 PM »
If you think their weak build out the side plate a bit. See what happens.
I also use a big wide broadhead to tell me if the spine is correct.
I shoot 55/75's out of a brack quest thats 57# @ 27". I cut the arrows 28 inches hang 275 grains out front though.

Offline KHALVERSON

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2011, 08:54:00 PM »
id say way stiff
my predator is 46#s @ 28 and i draw 30 so roughly 51-52#s @ 30
i shoot a 31 in 55-75 with 100 grn brass insert and 125 heads  thay bareshaft a touch week and group together pretty nicely with 3 5.5 in shields

id try a 55-75 cut to 30 and a 50grn insert with the 125 head
just my .02
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Offline chuckbow

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2011, 08:58:00 PM »
stiff
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Offline sbschindler

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2011, 09:08:00 PM »
way way to stiff no doubt,, I have  a predator also and I do shoot the 3555's with a 100 grain insert and a 175 grain broadhead.. my arrows are cut to 30 inches,, my draw weight is 58 @29 iches so you might go for the 50 grain insert or do a do-over and go with the carbon express hertitages 150 with the 100 grain insert..

Offline Big Ed

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2011, 09:09:00 PM »
55/75 with 225 up front
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Offline Shan

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2011, 10:29:00 PM »
THank you all for your replies. Im always impressed with how helpful people on here can be.

I ordered a test kit from 3 rivers and will test both theories, weak or way too stiff.

I ordered today so they should be here within the week.

I'll let you guys know what happens!!!!!
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Offline xtrema312

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 11:20:00 PM »
Peoples experience is all over the board on carbons.  In the end you have to work this out for yourself and your bow.  I can offer some of what I have found.  I don’t know if it will help or confuse you.

I to have had all kinds of odd tuning issues with carbons.  For me the 5575 acts much stiffer than the spine would indicate.  However, the 3555 acts about right for me.  I shoot about 50-52@28 with a little over 29” draw.  I can’t cut 3555’s much because I think they are 30” plus nock length.  I get them down to about 8 gpp and cut as short as I can go, and they are still a little too weak.  I have had them flying way weak and brought them in by reducing point weigh. No doubt for me they are too weak.  Unless I am shooting ILF I just can’t stiffen them more by dropping point weight.

Odd thing I find is that a cut to center bow for me likes to shoot a stiffer carbon than a cut past center bow of the same draw weight.  It should be the other way around, but as far as I can tell the fast recovering carbon and the more spine forgiving cut past center bows just seem get along well and work out better with a little less spine.

I have a theory that a carbon due to its fast recovery could have two ranges it can work in for spine.  One is on the stiff side where the arrow flexes a little and recovers very fast.  You can tune it. The other option is real weak where the arrow flexes a lot more, acts more like wood or aluminum and flexes a couple times before final recovery.  Between the two is a place where things get sketchy and probably look weak for a while until you get enough flex for a good rebound flex back.  Not sure as I have not gotten that weak with anything I have tested, but I suspect it based on what other have been able to do.  

For the 5575 I have to run my arrows about 31”, add 100 gr. insert and then about 150-175 points depending on the bow.  For me that is about 20# under spine from what Stu’s calculator says.  One thing I have seen stated, and it works out for me, is that carbons are much more sensitive to length than to point weight.  I have two shaft of the same spine with two lengths and point weights.  The dynamic spine is off about 5# with the shorter shaft being the weaker of the two. Both bare shaft great and the same flight, fly great fletched, and shoot great with a broadhead.  I have tested them with point changes and just end up the same. The shorter shaft must have more point weight proportionally or a weaker dynamic spine number in comparison to the longer shaft to work.  Length is critical and probably why some people can really load up a lighter spine shaft.  I think you take off an inch or two and get a big difference.  
I am not sure what happens with the 7595, but if it increases dynamic spine as much as the jump between the 3555 and 5575, I would guess you are too stiff.  I would really load up the point weight if you can.  Go 100 gr. insert and 200 or 225 and see what happens. Better yet start off with a 31” shaft or longer and work down.  I think you could make that shaft work for you if you get the length and weight up. Something like 31” plus with 100 gr. insert and 175-200 point.  This would give you a little over 10 gpp.

You can try the 5575, but you’re shooting a 62-63# bow at your draw weight.  Based on my experience with that bow about 10# lighter draw would indicate you could end up a little too weak when you hit the bottom of the recommended gpp range. You can build out the strike plate to try to get it, but you still may not get much if weight if you want it without jumping as shaft size.

A test kit and point weight test kit is the only way to fly I think. Good luck and keep us posted.
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Offline Shan

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Re: Weak or waaay too stiff?
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2012, 12:14:00 AM »
Well gents from my testing it appears that they were too stiff or at the low end of xtrema312's tuning window.

The only bareshafts that grouped with the fletched shafts were the 100 grn points and even those showed just slightly weak.

Going up in point w only pushed the bareshafts out further to the right. 100grn broadheads also fly well.

For now I'll stick with this but I may build out the sideplate later to add some weight.

Thanks again to everyone, don't know what I'd do w/o the Gang  ;)

Have a happy new year!!!
Semper Fidelis

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