penetration/recovery distance-a discussion!

[Mike Bolin]

Not beating a "dead horse"   ! Mike

[Gray Buffalo]

I agree with what your are saying. I shot a buck a few years back at 5 yards ( complete pass thru ) eating some acorns. He looked up and then started eating again. He walked about 10 yards and fell over. A year later I shot a buck chasing does ( complete pass thru ) and he went 150 yards. The arrow took out both lungs on both deer. Both deer were shot with a 60# longbow and a two blade delta.

[Bladepeek]

I'll second the above. I'm new to bow hunting and have only shot 2 whitetails. Both were broadside shots. One, shot through the lungs, just sort of sighed, stood there for a bit and then tipped over. The other, a young buck, was heart shot and went off like he was shot out of a cannon. He made it about 50 - 60 yards and dropped. I shot a roe buck (40lbs field dressed) with my 30-06 in  Germany. Went like a scalded cat in a 50 yd diameter circle leaving a trail like a 5 gallon bucket was dumping blood. I watched him the whole circle and he never stumbled until he flipped end over end. I've pretty much given up trying to predict how an animal will react. I do believe if I hit him right with a really sharp broad of 2, 3, or 4 blade configuration, I will probably get

     1. complete pass through.
     2. a recoverable animal.

[Mike Bolin]

Hmmmm........I thought this would prove to be a decent topic to stimulate discussion?!? Maybe this horse has been beaten to death?        LOL!!

[Mac11700]

Animal disposition does have a great deal to do with it...it always has..and it doesn't matter how it is done..just as people will always look for something to blame when things don't pan out as expected..that's just animal & human nature..

Mac

[Fletcher]

In my experience, arrow flight has probably the greatest effect on penetration.  Even a little bit crooked will really slow an arrow down on the way through.

[Iowabowhunter]

I haven't had the confidence to bring my recurve into the woods with me at this point, now deer season is over with unfortunately. I just recently started shooting my grandfather's recurve (within the last 2 n a half months) so there's a small chance I would have been confident enough to bring it along anyways. I have taken a few deer with my compound, using 3 blade Thunderhead bh's and G5 Montec's. Either broadside or quartering away shots. 3 of the doe's were under 20 yards, and piled up in sight on a double lung hit, same scenario with an older mature doe, she ran about 150 pumping blood like a fire hydrant. Double lunged her as well, not a single one was tense, mostly feeding or working a scrape when I shot them, different animals we really have no way to tell what they are going to do in any given situation. Just my .2

[Zbone]

Personally, I believe it has more to do with archer’s disposition rather than the quarry’s. Many traditional archers will short draw (target panic or whatever you want to call it) and swear they don't yet you witness it. Have seen some short draw 6 or more inches on game. Think about it – If shooting a 55# bow and averaging 2.5 to 3 pounds per inch of pull near peak, that drops arrow energy delivery weight 15 to 18 pounds and they’re only releasing  around 38 – 40 pounds of pull out of there 55# bow…

Speaking of penetration, once read where an old school bowhunter when ask what he’d rather have on a marginal hit more cutting surface or deeper penetration. His reply was deeper penetration… I would agree.

[b.glass]

Zbone, not to mention the poor arrow flight you would get with a short draw shot.

The buck in my avatar was shot with a 48# bow and 550 grain arrow with a WW broadhead. Total pass through and he went less than 90 yds.

He was slightly quartering on. (I know, not the best shot angle.) I've always heard that you will know when it feels right. It was the last week of Sept. in Kentucky. He was so relaxed he acted like he didn't have a care in the world.

At the hit he took off at a run. I don't remember if I got both lungs. Maybe being so relaxed was what saved me a longer blood trail.

[olddogrib]

Mike,
I think the lack of discussion is more a sign of concurrence than disinterest.  You are seeking agreement as to whether an animal's state of "alertness" could negatively impact penetration and I don't think anyone with any experience would argue that point.  Furthermore, we've all seen the amazing slo-mo videos of wired animals "jumping the string" of the fastest wheelie bows.  It doesn't matter that you "pick a spot" and make a perfect shot if that spot isn't there when the arrow arrives.  Nor will an arrow striking an animal in "launch" mode get optimum penetration.  The only choice we have in mitigating all these "other" factors is taking the shot or not.  Therein lies the maturity of the bowhunter.  I had the buck of my lifetime inside 15 yards for 10 minutes the last time I hunted this year. He was totally focused on a doe and yearling that, as luck would have it, were approaching behind me.  Never offered anything be a front-on shot until they'd had enough of each other.  Do I regret not taking the shot?  Nah, there's always next year! Sometimes the shots we should be proudest of are the ones we don't take.

[Bill Carlsen]

That is why shooting distance is only one factor to consider when deciding on when to shoot. The more relaxed the animal the better, IMO.  And sometimes they can be too close.

[straitera]

With all due respect intended, my experience &/or argument (or lack of) has always been penetration through vitals. Assuming vitals are severed, either b-head will result in fatality. Therefore, the question becomes which will penetrate better & thus establish the better bloodtrail to recovery?

My experience is that I DO NOT want the arrow remaining inside the animal. I prefer a complete passthrough & into the dirt a foot on the opposite side leaving 2 leaking blood channels. Common sense says multiblade bh's cut (marginally {who knows}?) more; however, if they remain inside (from friction or whatever) the chances of bloodtrail are thus limited. My personal experience suggests questionable bloodtrails w/multi-blade heads left inside an animal & the very reason I stopped using them 35 years ago. Also began shooting heavier lb's (which improve penetration likewise).

You do make a perfect key point however. That is confidence. I KNOW 2-blades are devistating having killed more deer, hogs, & other than I can count. Along with heavy arrows they break through bones & all for penetration I count on. You KNOW 3-blades work for similar reasons. Who am I to tell you otherwise? MOF, just the opposite. Hope you & every other multi-blade shooter kill everything you shoot at resulting in bloodtrails Stevie Wonder could follow. My dismal experience w/3-blades notwithstanding. 2-blade 125 grain Zwickeys & Bears are the 30/30 caliber of bh's IMO. Good enough for HH & FB to kill huge numbers of larger animals, certainly good enough for me.

Thanks for the topic. IMHO, there may be no one correct head (other than razor sharp) regardless of which you decide. Your confidence should determine your ethical choice. Sorry for longwinded as it is very important to me also.

[beendare]

So many factors but I would agree with Fletcher above that numero uno is arrow flight. A wobbly arrow has poor penetration.

Equipment wise you have arrow weight, an efficient BH, how loud your bow is on the shot [under 20 yards that doesn't much matter but beyond- sure]

Animal wise you have any number of combinations of awareness and environmental conditions to consider prior to the shot.

 A guy can't go wrong striving for perfect form and flight with a decently heavy arrow from a ultra quiet bow...

[stujay]

I'm a yep to all of the above.

[JamesKerr]

I agree 100% there is no animal on North America that a 55# effecient bow with any sharp traditional broadhead can't take.

[Bowwild]

With recurves I have no experience with other than than 2-blade broadheads except in the early 70's with Bear Razorheads plus insert.

I even stopped using the Razorhead bleeder after a while because I didn't like the way they fit.

My hunting curves are all what most would call light draw weights at 44-48#'s at my true-anchor-every-time 26" draw. This second time around with curves I've fallen hard for 2-blade, single-bevel broadheads. I'm getting pass-throughs from 8-21 yards so far (3 deer)these past two years. My deer have all gone 52-70 yards from my tree and died -- 2 in sight.

I'm intrigued with the deadly appearance of some of the really long 3-blades lots of folks talk about. I just fear less penetration with these and I don't think I could put the edge I require on them like I can a 2-blade.

[Ryan Rothhaar]

Mike, interesting topic.

Personally, I've never had a penetration issue with big Snuffers (the 1 1/2 inch ones) on animals from deer, pig, bear sized up to moose and elk sized with bows in the "moderate" range - say mid 50's to mid 60's - EXCEPT those that would have been non-fatal anyhow - mainly a couple of high-loin shots that did not enter the chest cavity, and were not on a trajectory to do so even if they had penetrated farther, and a followup center shoulder blade on my already fatally wounded moose.  The only animal I've shot in North America with a Snuffer that I did not get very good penetration was my musk ox, and I got to the offside ribs on him (2 times).  That was the hardest/tightest rib cage I've seen other than on a water buffalo.  That buffalo, and 4 big pigs in Australia, were the only animals I've ever shot with a 2 blade head (STOS) - 75 lb bow and 1100 grain arrows.  Penetration was a non-issue on the pigs, obviously, and recovery distance averaged about 15 yards.  In my limited experience though (say 6-8 pigs) I've found them to be VERY easy to kill.  Not even in the same league as a whitetail, maybe that's just my experience.

Alot of this, as you stated, may be partially attributed to shooting animals at the right time.  This is probably one of the most overlooked aspects of bowhunting - the learning when is the "right" time to drop the string.  I know guys that have bowhunted seriously for decades that still can't get it figured out, and I have known a couple guys that were just naturals, instinctively able to get the job done.  Its a combination of the animal's mindset, your mindset, the situation, and lots of other variables.  Eventually, just like any other "woodsmanship" skill, it becomes second nature.  I suspect that guys switching over from compounds where they may be used to "drawning down" on deer way before the animal enters the shooting lane may have a VERY difficult time learning this with a traditional bow.

Now my wife and I HAVE had quite a bit of experience over the last couple of years tracking deer for people with our dog.  The vast majority of these guys are "modern" archers and the heads of choice seem to be very small, steep angled, 3 blade heads.  Penetration has not been a problem on the tracks we've went on..full pass thru's are the norm.....but the distance the deer travelled has been AMAZING sometimes - of course we don't get called on deer that are hit properly in the first place.  That said, I've never had a deer fatally shot with a Snuffer go over 300 yards if he wasn't pushed - and I've made some hits I'm not proud of. But these little 3 blades - even through 1 lung and a liver - have given us 800-900 yard tracks.  I've been shocked at some of these tracks, this would be unacceptable to me.  I question the hunters about sharpness, and I don't think that is the issue as these come pretty sharp (replaceable razors)- and the guys that call us are generally pretty serious hunters, I don't think they are shooting animals with arrows they shot into the dirt first....I think it is just the little hole they make.

R

[beendare]

Ryan,
 I had 3 animals shot with short less tapered heads/compound bow that would have made you scratch your head and say how can that be [perfect shot location]. 3 animals- one elk, two pigs. Pushed tissue out the exit hole on one pig and very little blood writhing on the ground from a center punched [broadside double lung] elk.

 On autopsy of the elk, the head had compressed the hide which was caked with dried mud chopping a hole which must have dulled the replaceable blade ST head on contact. The recovered head was dull as a butter knife still wedged inside the animal. The original wound channel bled little.    Afterward, it occurred to me the pigs I had problems with had been wallowing also.

 After those instances, I'm a firm believer in edge retention through a tapered design and quality steel. The longer COC tapered heads with more mechanical advantage don't compress the hide as the short heads do, leaving the blades razor sharp all the way through the animal. Apologies for the thread hijack....

[Mac11700]

Originally posted by beendare:
Ryan,
 I had 3 animals shot with short less tapered heads/compound bow that would have made you scratch your head and say how can that be [perfect shot location]. 3 animals- one elk, two pigs. Pushed tissue out the exit hole on one pig and very little blood writhing on the ground from a center punched [broadside double lung] elk.

 On autopsy of the elk, the head had compressed the hide which was caked with dried mud chopping a hole which must have dulled the replaceable blade ST head on contact. The recovered head was dull as a butter knife still wedged inside the animal. The original wound channel bled little.    Afterward, it occurred to me the pigs I had problems with had been wallowing also.

 After those instances, I'm a firm believer in edge retention through a tapered design and quality steel. The longer COC tapered heads with more mechanical advantage don't compress the hide as the short heads do, leaving the blades razor sharp all the way through the animal. Apologies for the thread hijack....

I was told this about some animals that roll in the dirt and mud a long time ago by my dad..and believe it..


It doesn't take a lot of dried mud & rocks to dull a lot of the heads out there or stop or deflect a lot of bows..

Mac