Test Shooters Wanted

[Doug Treat]

Thanks for trying it Bisch, Ben, and Bel007.

[Bowwild]

I string walk so I can place the point of the arrow on the spot I want to hit, no matter the distance.

I shoot 3-under. My index (top) finger touches the arrow nock on shots that are just a tad over 30 yards.  I shoot about 4 inches high at 30 yards - I suppose I'd be dead on around 35.

[Doug Treat]

OK, I got curious because it seems to be that this works well for shooters who shoot 3-under that anchor with their index finger in the corner of their mounth.  A higher or lower point doesn't seem to work.  I just shot using different anchor/finger placement just to see.  Here's what I found.  Remember that I normally shoot 3-under with my index finger in the corner of my mouth and I have a consistent (from 10-25 yds.) POA of 20".  I tried shooting split-fingered with the same anchor point.  I found that my POA was consistent from 15-30 yds. and the POA was about 40" (not very useful for hunting), but when I shot from 10 yds, it was way different.  Then I shot 3 under but raised my anchor point about an inch and a half.  Shooting like this my POA was not consistent at all as I changed yardages.  It seems to be that, for this to work, at least for me, the arrow nock has to be about 2 1/2" from the center of my aiming eye.

[kevgsp]

It is not possible to have the same poa from 5-25yard. It may look that way or be "close" especially if you are measuring the gap at the riser, and have a fast bow.

Here is a balistics calc that will tell u exactly where your arrow is at a given distance.  It is a real benefit to understand the exact arc your arrow is taking.
 http://www.outdoorsden.com/archery/archbal.asp

Your arrow is rising to HALF your PO distance then FALLING to your PO distance and beyond.

IF you have a 40yrd PO for example your 10y and 30y poa is the same.  

The shape of "your arc" is a result of your setup and shooting style.

[Doug Treat]

Rusty, it seems that your POA is way too long for this to work consistently (it would be difficult to judge 18' in front of a deer) and that your point on is about 45 yds.  If you were to change to 3-under (get your nock up closer to your eye), it might work, based on my experience.  Ben, you may have too high of an anchor for this to work.  This is some good information for me.  Again, I'm just looking for info. and I'm not trying to change the way that individuals shoot.  Thanks guys.

[Fisherking73]

Ok will take a stab at it. I am fairly new to trad (trying to ween off the wheelies) I wish I had the Hitman bow I just tested to do this as it was much faster and flatter shooting than my WARF bow. But here are my results shooting at a very light weight (limbs I used to build my form)
38# 27 inch  510grain
3 under
10-15 yds 10inches under
20 yds 10 inches above

1st group at 10 yds, red dot is POA
 

[Fisherking73]

2nd group from 15 yds same POA
 

[Fisherking73]

3rd group at 20 yds using same POA (did not go so well so only shot 2 arrows lol)
 

[Fisherking73]

Adjusted to my normal shooting reference point at 20yds and these were my resut. Holding about 8 inches above where I want to hit. Granted I believe this is due to my light weight limbs and would try this again with heavier bow once I get my hitman at 45lbs, should make a little difference.

 

[Tater John]

[Tater John]

#1 50#@28
#2 3 under
#3 10-15 yds.
#4 14"

First time I've tried three under, very strange.

14" is the point of impact above where I was aiming the arrow tip

Rusty

[RC]

I tried a bit today. Kinda like Bisch said. When I look at the arrow my shooting goes to crap purty quick.
  I really took time to focus and bare down and put the tip of the arrow probably 1.5 ft below the spot I wanted to hit and hit dead on. that was at 15 and at 25 I hit maybe 6" low same point on.I shoot a fairly "rainbow" set-up. 47@27 Mohawk and 550 grain arrow. The Mohawk is fine bow but at my Draw length and the fairly heavy arrow at 47 pounds it drops purty quick but is a killer.
  Kinda cool though and I enjoyed the "test". I struggled and strained to keep the point on the spot and hit fairly good every shot. I went back to my style afterward and made very good shots at ease. I like just looking at my spot and not aiming.Works best for me.RC

[Tater John]

My sentiments too, RC especially the struggle and strain keeping the point on the spot
Rusty

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by Doug Treat:
Friend, what you describe is what I would call shooting gap and what I believe Howard Hill called a split vision system.  Howard Hill used this but I think that his fast shots were more instinctive.  I think this POA system could be used effectively, esp. for a new trad. shooter, and then phased into more of an instinctive shot.
Kirk, sounds like you are shooting instinctive.

Even if focusing on the spot you want to hit is considered "Instinctive" there is still a subconscious relation between your sight window location, or your arrow tip. if you go out in shoot in total darkness at a glow stick, you realize right now that something is missing.

In my case i think it's more like a peep sight where i just focus on where my point of impact is going to be and the the shelf and arrow tip go a self centering think....

Now if i go thinking about it... and looking at the point of the arrow or consciously centering the shelf window it doesn't work for me.

What i find myself doing on long yardage shots like 60-80 yards is focusing on a spot above the target. on a 35 yard shot i focus about 6"-8" over where i want to hit.

I'm a good sport and I tried your test last night though.... I  just couldn't get anything consistent going...Kirk

[longbowben]

And another variable you raise and lower your nock height changes the gap.I set my bows up for the point just below at 20 yards.Arrow weight to pounds of bow make a big difference.If i put a 660 grain arrow my bow drops much quicker,for me the 10GPP works best very fast and flat shooting.Kirkll if i also just look at my arrow i don't shoot very accurate ,I stare at the spot i want to hit draw my bow and i see the arrow in my secondary vision automatically centers my bow and adjust for the up and down .Works great for me.I really dont think about distance unless 10 yards and under or over 25 yards.

[Doug Treat]

I did a few more tests today and now I think I must have stumbled onto the perfect setup with my bow/arrows/arrow length/arrow speed/3-fingers under draw/anchor point/etc. for this to work for me.  I took one of my arrows and added about 300 gr. to it as a test so that it was about 900 gr.  Instead of a 20" POA, I had a 10" POA but it was only good from 10-20 yds. It was about point on at 25 yds.  Then I tried a really light arrow-about 375 gr. (same bow) I found the POA at 10 yds.  It was about 35".  Then, at longer distances, my POA increased a lot.  I didn't figure out what it was at each distance, but noticed that I hit higher (holding the same POA) at each 5 yds. farther from the target.  I guess, if anyone wants to shoot this way for hunting, so that you don't have to judge distance between 10-25 yds., I can say that, from my experience, you can get the same POA from 10-25 yds. if you shoot a 32" arrow, with a 250 gr. point, weighing 630 gr., flying about 145 fps from your bow and you have an anchor point that gives you about 2.5" between your eye and the nock of the arrow, and your hat is on backwards . If you do all these things, you have a 37% chance of making this work.  Hope that helps :^).  Doug

[fnshtr]

I had an earlier post that was "non-sense"... sorry about that!

I have enjoyed this thread... thanks Doug... and all "the test shooters".

I shot my new SBD "skinny" string yesterday and LOVED it. I'm anxious to start shooting more again and will be trying some different methods.

FUN FUN FUN.

[BenBow]

Didn't work for me. I shoot split,anchor at the corner of my mouth. My POA at 15yard produces a 20" high shot at 25 yards.

[Doug Treat]

Thanks all for the info.  It seems that, for this to work, all the stars must be aligned (and somehow, they are for my setup) so this won't work for most shooters.  This has been a great learning experience for me so, a big thank you to all who tried this and got back with what you found.  Doug

[Pope Co.]

Doug,
Good topic. I read most of the correspondence over the past couple weeks, but I've been busy and have not replied. If my reply is a repeat of someone else's I apologize.

Our set up must be very close. At eight to eighteen yards my arrow point can be on the same spot on the target for the arrow to hit the bullseye. For me that spot (gap) is approximately twelve inches below the bullesye. I have thought about this phenomenom long before you started this topic but never long enough to come up with a theory. My theory hinges on this key point. My bullseye is two feet off the ground. (If our bullseye is at eye level, I'm not sure my next statements apply) We all know that our arrow is flying in an arc almost from the point of release. Initially we think our arrow is flying flat from eight to eighteen yards. But it is not. When we are eight yards out the arrow, at full draw is pointed downward to some degree. (Assuming our target is lower that eye level) As we move further from the target the arrow angle, at full draw, gets a little flater. In a way this is built-in compensation, however minor it is.

. The thing that one day I hope to experiment with is a bullseye at the same elevation as my eye. This would make the arrow angle flat at the start. As I move back there would not be any built in compensation, except for narrowing the gap. I would be interested in the elevation of your bullseye.