Have we neared an apex?

[moleman]

With all of the great bow/limb designs out there, other than material changes, have we neared an apex in traditional archery as far as speed?
I personally am not a speed junky, but the new designs and numbers coming out of the chronos are pretty danged impressive, ought be interesting to see what the future brings.  

[kill shot]

I like things the way they are. What is cool to me is the nostalgic new bows like the Bear recurves. I'd like to see a new tamerlane, polar or a timujin. (I know I didn't spell that right) Some of the new stuff (carbon arrows and tunable limbs) just don't set my pants on fire.

[RecurveRookie]

Hey Moleman, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!  I say yes to your question, wouldn't R/D longbows be the newest designs we have now?  By the way, my 57# recurve limbs are on the way!  My old 47# limbs finally "lightened up" for me, so I'm moving up.  More speed is always nice, but I'm happy with what we have.

[Orion]

We have hybrids that are about as fast as recurves now, but there really hasn't been a big change in bow speeds.  There were recurves that shot 190 feet per second 30-40 years ago -- Jack Howard and some Groves bows, I believe,and perhaps a few others.  

Materials have changed, and carbon in the limbs has kicked up the speed a few fps.  Non-stretch strings have kicked it up even more.  But overall, the fastest bows of today aren't much more than 10 fps faster than the fastest bows of yesterday (glass laminated, not selfbows) if that.

That's if we compare apples to apples, of course -- same bow draw weight at 28 inches, arrow drawn to 28 inches same reasonable arrow weight ( 9-10 gpp, for example), etc.

The little speed gains that have occurred over the past few years have come mostly from better quality materials, not better designs. Any future gains will come from materials improvements as well, and they won't be large, IMO.  Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  

[JAG]

It still only matters where YOU put the arrow, no matter how fast it gets there!
JAG/Johnny

[duncan idaho]

X2


 posted December 06, 2012 12:46 AM                                
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I have never understood why you cannot have a rational discussion about "speed" and traditional bows. The rules of this forum state, "debate is healthy, as one sword sharpens another".

However, in my opinion, you ask a question about "what is the fastest recurve?" or "how fast a design is XYZ bow compared to ZYX bow?" you will be "slammed" by all kinds of non-witty remarks, especially the famous" fast enough to kill" quote.

It seems, IMHO, that other people take that as a personal insult on traditional archery, yet all are pleased when a bowyer creates a more efficient bow that delivers the same speed at a lower poundage.It appears that most people on this forum shoot bows in the 45 to 53 pound range and I would think you would want the most bang for your buck.

There is nothing wrong about wanting a fast performing bow or discussing the various bowyers who make them.

If I am thinking of investing between 800 to 1300 dollars for a bow, which is the average price these days, I would certainly want the lastest in design and speed. Why have a custom bow built to subpar standards? The difference between 170 FPS and 190 FPS is substantial. I am lucky enough to own over a dozen custom recurves. There is a tremendous difference in shooting my 1997 Dale Dye and my 2012 Sasquatch. Both will kill, but, the Sasquatch delivers the arrow over 23 FPS faster, which make for, in my opinion, easier shooting. Shoot what YOU like, but, there is nothing wrong about talking about speed. IMHO.

--------------------
" Traditional Archery is not supposed to be easy. People who don't have the motivation to train, can always shoot a compound" me.

[ChuckC]

Nobody is getting slammed, and those remarks are. .  discussion.

Fast is good, quiet is good , pretty is good,  whatever you like is good.

Let's talk about about it some more.
ChuckC

[Doc Nock]

I think there will always be people who continue to press to milk the last ounce of performance out of any design.

One bowyer I've come to admire had resorted to high speed photography to watch how limbs behave AFTER the arrow leaves the string...

I've seen some of the clips.  Because of integrity, no names were associated with the varied bowyer's limbs in the clips, but some continued to oscillate and flail around like a snake on a hot tin roof.

This particular bowyer interpreted that to mean there is a lot of LOST energy in some designs and lay-ups.  He kept experimenting with designs and layups till his limbs stop dead on release.

Those are things that are independent of materials and draw weight...just getting the most of out a particular material and combination.

Sure, there will be more arrow speed, but speed alone is nothing...speed gained due to increased efficiency of the limb design...well, that means my shoulders will thank me and I can shoot lighter bows!

[SELFBOW19953]

I believe that what we are going to start seeing is the tweaking of existing designs and materials to get more efficient bows-quieter, faster bows and better performance from lower draw weights.

[Rob DiStefano]

a compromise of speed and stability is what most bowyers strive for, within any give design model parameters.  as an example, there's just so much that can be done with a hill style longbow (straight or offset limbs), but there's more latitude with r/d hybrid longbows.  there may be some new bow materials on the horizon, but i doubt any will offer more than increased longevity/durability as opposed to something totally "new and improved" with regards to a better compromise of trad bow speed/stability.  ymmv.

[Jeff Strubberg]

As long as folks continue to experiment and push the envelope, the rest of us can sit back at the 90% mark and continue to enjoy improvements without giving up stability and durability.

"In times like these, it's helpful to remember there have always been times like these."
--Paul Harvey

[kill shot]

When I decided to treat myself to a new bow, I had a choice of many different makes and models. Some shot well but were too much for my budget. Some did not shoot so well. A few weren't the most pleasing to my eyes. The one that I fell in love with was just right. Great looking(to me), shot very good and was in my budget. After buying it is when I found out that it was somewhat of a performance bow. Just like my wife. Just right. Trying out bows is like dateing girls. When you find the right one, marry her.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey there Paul,

To answer your question straight out, it is Yes. As we get closer and closer to the 100% efficiency mark on all these different bow designs, the gains that are made are going to be much smaller....

There have been a lot of good points made so far on this thread regarding why some bowyer's continue to push the envelope to obtain a higher performance bow. What a lot of folks do not take into account is that to obtain these higher speeds it requires balancing everything out to a much higher level which also produces a smoother drawing bow with less hand shock.....

it actually goes in reverse.  Read Robs post here a couple times real slow. He's hit it right on the head. The "compromise between speed and stability"  IS what every bowyer strives for.

Every design has it's maximum energy storage capacity while still maintaining stability.... if you cross that line and try to push for more performance and store more energy in a shorter working limb, it requires the use of different materials to keep the stability. The key element is striving for stability first. then balance the mass weight of the limbs to the string tension that stops the limb clean.

if you balance things out nicely all the way around, the speed of the bow naturally increases. You end up with a fantastic smooth shooting bow with a nice flat trajectory and very little wasted energy....

Are we splitting hairs?  You bet we are.... Some folks appreciate it... some don't really care one way or the other.... That's cool. Variety is the spice of life... Kirk

[Stumpkiller]

I bet a high-tech modern stickbow isn't over 80% efficient.  100% would be silent without silencers, no air resistance/drag from the string or limbs, no internal heat generated, no bending of the arrow on release, no vibration to the hand.  No rub marks on the riser or shelf pad.

On the other hand, this is "traditional" and we should have stopped at whatever technology we are hoping to recreate.  I hunt with original old bows and could care a snit what has been developed in the past 30 years.  That's "modern innovation" not tradition.    

[Hoyt]

As long as someone can make a stickbow out of something that comes from this good ole earth..and I like it..the faster it is the better I'll like it and it'll be traditional enough for me.

I may draw the line on a moon rock riser...not that there's anything wrong with that..just may not be quiet traditional enough for me.

[Andy Cooper]

I don't want a faster bow...just want a 50 pounder that shoots 850 grain arrows at ~175 fps!

     :D

[Altiman94]

Even the most technologically advanced bow won't put the animals in front of me.  I have had problems dealing with that mentally in the past and have struggled with all the gadgets.  We'll always want to strive for continuous improvement but if we choose to be 'hunters' we need to spend time in the woods where the animals live.

[JamesKerr]

I think we are pretty close to an apex with the materials and designs that are made today. Just look at the different high performance bows being offered. One bow may be 5 fps faster than another or one shoots a heavier arrow just a bit better, or one is a little quieter than the other. Like Kirk said at this point we really are splitting hairs. One particular high performance bow in not going to outperform another one by speed or stability (provided they are made of the same material as in wood vs. wood, foam and carbon vs. wood is a different story) by very much at all, in fact the differences in my opinion are negligible in most. Thankfully we have a lot of extremely good bowyers out there in todays market so it really comes down to which one you like the best not which one is the highest performer.

I have a Grooves Spitfire that is 44 pounds at my favored draw and a couple of pounds heavier if I stretch it an inch. It is simply very fast for its weight at my shorter draw, even with 11 gpp.  My pignut string follow is heavier, and it is just as fast as an average Hill string follow. Both will shoot nice tight groups for me, the pignut flat limb will shoot that same tight group in much less time.  How far have we come? Not all that far.

[Bowwild]

I like what Kirk, Rob, and others have written.

Surely, with current materials, we are only a handful of FPS from what is possible in a bow that is fun to shoot. Fun equals (to me) smooth drawing, pleasant after-shot, and great-fitting repeatable grip.

Maybe some hi-tech limb material (surely it would be ugly?) might bump FPS enough to be noticed?  

Personally, I appreciate beautiful wood in my bows.  I won't readily give up that beauty for speed.  Of course great wood won't make up for a pure dog of a bow.  I've only gotten rid of one bow because I thought it was just too low in performance, at my short (26") draw length.  I liked that bow but I wouldn't give up 20 FPS. I could easily tell the difference in just the "point-on" distance of this bow and ALL of my others!

Thankfully, it seems these days one can get both beauty and performance (more than just FPS but FPS is an important part of the evaluation) from several fine bowyers out there.