"perfectly stiff" while tuning

[DanielB89]

I am hoping this information will be helpful to all of you fellas.  I am a person who has always wanted a "perfectly" tuned bare shaft that flew like a dart, so minimum fletching would be required for stability.  Last evening I was speaking to Dave Oligee about what not and then we got on the topic of arrow spine and tuning, etc.  

HE then began to tell me that he has a 32" draw and shoots around #53 at that draw and asked me to guess his spine.. I said, in my experience, I would guess either a cut down .350 or a longer .300.  He then replied with .400 spine with a 175 grain tip.. my mind exploded.  Here I am with 2 #52@29 lonbows(a hill country and a centaur elite) that I am shooting 30 3/8" .350 spined arrows with 190 up front that bare shaft "perfect" at my 29.75" draw.  Some just didn't seem right.  First, I told him he was crazy(no secret there), and I also vowed to try a bare shaft .400 and see what it told me.

A little something about the arrows I shoot, I shoot black eagle outlaws that come to you a full 32(carbon to carbon), so it is around 32.5" including nock.  

Well, I started close(around 10 yards) to make sure I wouldn't miss the target because of how weak the arrow is going to be.  I shot and to my suprise, the arrow actually hit to the left(RH shooter/stiff) of where I was expecting.  I thought it was a fluke, i then went on and shot a couple dozen shots and everyone of them showed stiff with a 175 grain tip.  I then did what I always do when something "crazy" like that happens, I ask other peoples opinion.

I sent Big Jim a text(I apologize for bothering you) with all the particulars and he replied, "i'd bet either a .500 or you could possibly make a .400 work, i'd bet you're on the bubble".  How crazy is that?  I told him nothing about how the arrow flew, and he told me EXACTLY what it did as a bare shaft.  The .400 was stiff with the full length .400 and I don't have any .500's to try.  

I started wondering how in the world this could be because here I am 4 years into my traditional archery career and I finally learn the proper spine arrow I should be shooting. LOL!!!


I called another buddy and told him my finding and we came up with the completely original term for my situation, "perfectly stiff".  I would describe it to where my arrows were so stiff that they kicked off the riser and gave me a "false weak".  As I trimmed the arrow, it would become even stiff, reducing flex, and reducing the false kick off the riser. (that's my theory).  


I have never even started with a .400 in tuning because I knew it was going to be too weak because of how the .350's shot bare shaft.  

I hope this helps someone out.  As I now realize I should have taken Jim's advice around 3 years ago.  I can't tell you how many times he would tell me, "you ain't special, you're over spined".  I am special and I was overspined!  

[Possum Head]

I have found that most folks that are off in their spine selection are predominately too stiff rather than weak.

[moebow]

GOOD discovery Daniel!!  Better late than never.

  I agree with Possum's statement but most are offended or disbelieving to give themselves a real chance to find the right arrow.

Arne

[McDave]

I suppose based on what you found, and what Big JIm has stated in some other recent posts, it would be good practice when tuning to purposely tune on each side of stiff and weak to make sure you are getting true readings and not a false weak.  IOW, if you have what you think is a tuned arrow, you should be able to add 20 grains of point weight and show a slight weak indication, and subtract 20 grains of point weight and get a slight stiff indication.  I think I will plan on doing that from now on.

[AZ_Longbow]

yep McDave, after I get my tune flying right, I then run the point weight down and up. I can see them go to stiff and then to weak.

[olddogrib]

Long bows, recurves, metal ILF risers, etc. can vary in the degree to which the risers are cut to, shy of or past center.  This can affect spine as much or more than poundage OTF (off the fingers).

[IndaTimber]

I'm 100% positive I'm stiff, getting a false weak when bare shafting but field tips and broad heads are right there where I'm looking, sometimes I just look in the wrong spot! This is my first year of nothing but trad and I've got a long way to go.

The never ending journey!!

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by IndaTimber:
I'm 100% positive I'm stiff, getting a false weak when bare shafting but field tips and broad heads are right there where I'm looking, sometimes I just look in the wrong spot! This is my first year of nothing but trad and I've got a long way to go.

The never ending journey!!

I have missed 2 deer with my trad bow.. Both were misses to the left(stiff) I'm hoping this fixes those problems.

[drewsbow]

Daniel , my bet is in a hunting situation you might short draw and that stiff arrow shows more also hence the left miss

[katman]

Originally posted by olddogrib:
Long bows, recurves, metal ILF risers, etc. can vary in the degree to which the risers are cut to, shy of or past center.  This can affect spine as much or more than poundage OTF (off the fingers).

x2!

Glad you found what flies well for you Daniel.

[BAK]

I watch what people post here that they use for spine and have been saying for years that many many of them are spined way to stiff and won't believe it.

Beginning to think it's a "macho" thing, my shaft is stiffer than your shaft!!!!!

[CoachBGriff]

I'm shooting a #55 @ 28" Hoyt Dorado with a a 29" draw.

A .400 Axis arrow with a 50 grain insert and a 125 grain point does show weak when bareshafted.  

And my .340's with a 75 grain insert and a 150 grain head are flying true when bare.

Would you say you think I too am getting a false reading?

[Joeabowhunter]

Daniel, the truth to me finding the "perfect arrow" was actually a mistake.  I was tuned in with my 340 centershots and shooting decent but noticed I had the odd arrow that every round just shot better and quieter especially with broadheads.  It turned out that arrow was a 400 spine mixed in with my brand new dozen 340's by mistake!  I put that arrow through a nice young buck and ordered 3 dozen more 400's the next day!

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by CoachBGriff:
I'm shooting a #55 @ 28" Hoyt Dorado with a a 29" draw.

A .400 Axis arrow with a 50 grain insert and a 125 grain point does show weak when bareshafted.  

And my .340's with a 75 grain insert and a 150 grain head are flying true when bare.

Would you say you think I too am getting a false reading?

Personally, I would say yes.  But Big Jim can tell you much better than I can.  His text blew my mind.

[Jake Scott]

Daniel,
Your experience pretty much perfectly mirrors mine lately.  I've been shooting a setup that's WAY too stiff.  Another factor is the effects of your fletching.  I'm a huge proponent of four fletch, and I can prove its worth with slo-mo video of it straightening out my super stiff shafts extremely quickly.  Even though your "perfectly stiff" arrows were flying well, I bet your groups will tighten drastically since you've dropped down in spine.  

COOL THREAD!!!

Jake

[DanielB89]

My dilemma continues..

I have a full length black eagle outlaw(almost 33") that is STILL stiff, but justbarely, with a 225 grain tip up front.  I have been wanting to try out some micro diameter shafts and I know that a micro diameter shaft will make the arrow more center shot.  So if I go to micro diameters, and get new arrows, Should I go with the 400 spine or with the .500 spine?

traditional archery is CRAZY!  I have shot trad archery for 4 years, won 2 LA State championships, The Howard Hill this past summer, 3rd at TAS worlds, etc. and now I realize I have been out of tune all this time. LOL!!!

[McDave]

FWIW, I've found that when shooting micro diameter shafts, I get tighter groups when I build out the side plate to where the center line of the microdiameter shaft lies in about the same place on my rest as the centerline of a regular carbon shaft.  I would suppose that having done that, the optimal spine would remain about the same as a regular carbon shaft.  This is just my own experience, and I have won no state championships, so as I said, FWIW.

[Car54]

Boy, have y'all got me thinking now..guess its time for a arrow test kit.

[katman]

I am in agreement with McDave, I set my ILF centershot for that diameter arrow to be 1/2 arrow width to the left of center, RH shooter. If I switch to a different diameter in order to use same spine I must reset centershot, plungers are nice.

If your using say a fat grizzlystick or AD shaft and switch to one of the very small diameters and don't change centershot you have moved the new shaft closer to center so it will act weaker. If you get the same spine just build out strike plate. With a microdiameter you can get past centershot if bow is cut way past, not good.

[atatarpm]

1st my thanks to Moebow, Bisch, And others to numerous to mention.
1st arrow 175 spine 33 inches 315grs. up front
2nd arrow 300 spine 30 inches 315grs. up front
There have been no bow adjustments. Both arrows hit exactly the same;  bare shaft the same and paper tune the same. The only thing I can think here is that the dynamic spine is the same for both.  Any thoughts.