HH bug got me ... Part One!

[Claymore]

I saved a couple of picks of Nate's hand placement that he may have posted on this thread and they show exactly what he is describing above and very informative.

[Rossco7002]

Regular practice out past 20 yards has made a world of difference for me this year. My confidence at hunting ranges has REALLY benefited.

I'm also shooting about 2 hours everyday (much to my wife's displeasure sometimes)..... Lol

[khardrunner]

post the pics again please

[Claymore]

I don't have them on this computer maybe Nate remembers and can re-post I am almost sure they were his.

[Claymore]

Let me tell you my story about my journey with Hill bows and see if you all can help me. I bought my first Hill when I was 55 years old. It was the only bow I had. All the training was John's Hitting them Howard Hill. So I practiced and got fairly good at 20 yds. I then fell on ice and broke my left arm. No shooting for 5 months. During my lay off I knew I needed a lighter bow to rehab so I had a ILF with 24# limbs. I got good with it but a different style of shooting. When I went back to the Hill for what ever reason I developed a colapse about every 4-5 shots. I have never gotten back to where I was with the Hill before my accident.And that's been about 3 years ago. I decided I was just going to shoot the Hill and nothing else. But I still cannot get back to the consistancy that I had before the accident. Any help would be appriciated.

[Jacquesbonin]

Wow Guys, I missed so much in the last 15 hours or so! Nate thanks putting the rest of the words to make my earlier observations clear and meaningful! I have never wanted to post and become part of any controversy. I have been posting as I believe these discusions are necessary for old timers and new to the fold. Most of the understanding about selfbows and Hill bows and their use is lost to the older generations that have past. Howard Hill,Ben Pearson,Fred Bear, Stmmler,Len Cardinale,the Stotlers, and many others have all past taking with them the collective knowledge of the day.
In my opinion, these discusions are being made by solid individuals with maturity to their archery careers and bring a lot to the table. It takes years to learn the collective knowledge that was brought out in the last four or five pages. If an archer began shooting without any guidance and left to his or her own devices, there is no way the individual would ever discover what has been expressed here. May we all step back and review what we want to achieve and then go out and achieve. Thanks,Jacques

[Bud B.]

Originally posted by sunset hill:
A good, solid bowarm leads to good shooting.  A great bowarm makes for great shooting.  Here are some thoughts and techniques I use after much study of the Hill style...

If you study much martial arts punching...you learn that you get the most power with an arm that is not fully extended...like a jab, you use the deltoid muscle of the shoulder and not the tricep.  Same with the bow arm.  Try this...hold a cordless drill in your bowhand while holding it out to the side of the body with an extended arm...look at the elbow and bowhand....elbow is bent and pointing down and wrist and bowhand looks like Hill's which looks like you are shooting a pistol and that is the essential Hill grip on the bow.  Holding the drill with arm extended puts pressure on the deltoid muscle and imitates the feeling of how the deltoid should feel when drawing and shooting.  This takes pressure off the tricep, and shortens the draw because the shoulder is back in the shoulder girdle where it is strong and stable.  Most guys do the pushing with the tricep instead of the deltoid and that is a weaker position.  Hold the bow like a heavy pistol...arm is bent to absorb recoil and elbow points down

Now try this with one of the doors in your home... open the door about 1/2 way and stand and place your hand against the door edge in a low wrist position like when you hold the drill or pistol and then lean against the door...like you are shooting your bow.  The hinges will allow the door to swing and you will fall forward unless you are stable.  The lower your bowarm elbow is pointing, and the more your shoulder  is back in the socket the more stable you are and easier to control the door.  The more you rotate your elbow  out and grip the door like an Asbell canted hand grip with pressure against your thumb...the harder it is to keep the door from swinging all over.  This is a good way to feel how the shoulder controls the bowarm...

Hand position on the handle will dictate bowarm position.  They go together like ham and eggs.  Correct bow  arm with low pointing elbow is very strong, stable, and will shorten the draw...all good things.

I read this thoroughly and went out this morning and shot several volleys at 17 and 20 yards. Almost instant positive results. Groups were noticeable tighter. My form needs much imporvement, but these last few pages have been some of the best posts on this thread about how to shoot a Hill style bow..

Thanks Nate...and all of you veteran Hill style shooters.

[Raminshooter]

Regarding practicing at longer distances:  I believe Howard Hill emphasised at some point the importance of maintaining "Line" in your shooting.  I think the way he stated it was in terms of it was ok to shoot "over" or "under" the target as long as you were in "line" with it.  Longer distances magnify your errors at time of release and this is why shooting at long distances is so intructive. The objective should be to maintain as straight of a line to your target as is possible and if you can do that the proper elevation will eventually come (for instinctive shooters). One of the greatest longbow shooters I ever met lives in S. California and shoots HH bows.  If you rove with him he shoots at targets 100 to 175 yards away all the time. Now, he focuses on the smallest target he can pick out...it may be a white rock that he sees or a shiny leaf and it is a struggle to find the target he has picked at times, but this is how he has trained himself = aim small!  I learned more about improving my shooting in one day of roving with this guy than in years of prior shooting. Long distance shooting really helps.

[MikeNova]

To add to what Nate says about the punch. Bruce Lee said the punch should connect 2 inches before the arm locks out.

Hill's draw length and those 27" arrows. I would bet that they were net length for Hill, although if one looks closely at the slowmos on the videos, Hill's draw length or the exact point where the arrow left his fingers did come up short at times. A good longbow will help cover that minor stuff. I talked to a fellow that was from Alabama that had a bamboo Jerry Hill just like mine, he told me that Howard was using 2018s that were 29"bop out of a 75 pound bow when he met him during a deer season.
   My own observation about the bent bow arm.  If your elbow is bent about like Hill's, it gives the advantage of being from elbow to across the shoulders in a strong straight line.  Plus the bend in the arm is about the distance that ones anchor falls from that straight line.  I gave a friend a longbow a couple of years back, this spring he was telling me that his longbow must be losing weight because it draws easier than his recurve. The difference was not in the bow poundage or in the draw length which was the same with both bows, it was in the form. He had a bent bow arm with the longbow and fairly straight from shoulders to his elbow, and with recurve with the high grip, he was straight armed and goose necking.  Hill form is strong form.

[Jacquesbonin]

I sold one of Howard Hill's personal arrows I recieved from Jerry Hill to Ron Roehrick. the arrow was made by Ben Pearson for Howard. The length of the predominately white arrow,(white feathers and shaft)tapered from3/8th's to 9/32nds at the nock end, was tipped with a 100grain steel blunt, measured 27 and 5/8ths long overall. Now here is the part that is confusing to most as they try to figure out Howard's true draw. He drew those arrows past the back of the bow for most stand up, straight forward shots. The blunt tip would end up 3/8ths to 1/2" past the back of bow, so if you do the math, it comes up 28" to 28and 1/8th's. The problem with this howard varied his draw so much depending on the shot rendered no one can say for sure what it truly was! Suffice to say it was some where between 27 and 5/8ths and 28and 1/8 inches. What is important bout any of this is the fact that Howard drew an arrow much shorter than most any archer of his physical dimensions. For the total shooting style he had developed over years of experience placed him in the forefront of archery for more than 50 years of dominating the sport. I for one will not question his shooting style,the shooting form or the bows he developed. The tool and it's use is by far the most advantageous for myself as well as many seasoned archers. I am so glad there have been those great archers and manufactureres that have kept archery alive in it's many forms for each of us to pursue and enjoy till our hearts content.later,Jacques

[Rossco7002]

What weight bow are you shooting in your video Kyle? You're making it look effortless...

[khardrunner]

It's marked 55 @ 27 inches, but I don't think it is quite that heavy. Those are full length pred II arrows with ace hex heads on the front so I am drawing right at 30". It certainly doesn't feel effortless!

That bow is heading out for a little weight reduction and some refinishing work tomorrow. Honestly it feels a little too heavy for me to shoot accurately.

[khardrunner]

Here's another angle... I can see a couple of things that need to be fixed such as the rearword movement on the draw and the slight creep forward just prior to release. Anything else you guys can point out?

 

VIDEO... CLICK TO WATCH

[swampthing]

28" Many of his actual broadhead arrows were 28.75" B.O.B. {back of barb}
 I would say that a lot of those short arrows were break offs that were given away.

[swampthing]

khardrunner I see a few. Nothing huge but seen by me.
 1. you are looking at the string when you nock the arrow.
 2. you are holding at full draw, once you touch anchor start to loose, but continue to pull through it without stopping or letting your fingers creep or move from that anchor spot.
 3. those metal shafts sound like a .22 going off!
 Easy fixes.

[khardrunner]

Haha thanks! It's very tough to nock with your wrong hand (you should try it!). I shot RH for over 20 years and I have found one of the hardest things about swapping to LH has been handling the arrows. Also, one of the nocks was VERY loose on the string and I have had a number of dryfires in that situation so I was working to avoid that.

As for the .22 going off, I don't know what to do about that. They are carbon shafts. I think a lot of the sound is a very sensitive camera. You can hear EVERYTHING amplified.

Everyone has their own particular strengths and coordination.  However, one way to approach that rearward upper body motion is to not get into a position that requires that correction.  It is quite common to see folks get into that jump into the gofer hole posture prior to the the shot, myself included.  when I am shooting left handed and I start doing that, I feel like I have draw to finish after I reach anchor and I do. The way I control it is to make certain that the bow rises faster than the drawing hand. This causes an effect of the arrow pointing up a bit and possibly a little high and right of the mark,(left handed)which then slides into position and stays put throughout the straight back portion of the draw.  If shooting left hand is new to you, your eyes may need a bit of time to settle your aim in.  It is much easier to learn how to have a short of your anchor snap release,(target panic) than it is to have solid predictable anchor. Lots of times Hill held for just a little bit before he released. A quarter or half second hold at anchor is a lot better than a snap release that does not reach any anchor.

[swampthing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFqjNKC72dA&feature=related

[swampthing]

No short shucking there. Looks like a 110# yew wood bow. Handshock?? That's it! pretty mild looking to me.
 Would you "stand in" for that guy????