HH bug got me ... Part One!

[centaur]

Well, you guys went and did it. I just got off the phone to Craig, and a Wesley Special will be heading my way in the next few weeks. 68", 55@28, caramelized bamboo with bocote riser, moose wrap and locator grip/string follow limbs.
I have had Hill style longbows in years past, but it has been a while. If not for this ongoing thread, I probably wouldn't have got another one, but you guys convinced me to give them another go.
Thanks (I think).

[khardrunner]

What's the "golfer hole" posture?

I am still working on developing an anchor while shooting LH. I also am not comfortable shooting right at anchor. That is how I used to shoot when I shot RH and I developed some pretty severe TP and other issues. For right now, I am holding just a bit, maybe a second or two so I feel the back tension. I certainly shoot more accurately that way right now. Perhaps as I develop I will be able to shorten that hold time.

Originally posted by WESTBROOK:
 

That is why lots of guys can't hit anything past 25 yards...they only shoot the distance their bow shoots flat and never learn their arrow arc.

Good point Nate, get out there beyond 40 and it WILL MAKE YOU shoot better. Everything becomes critical out there, you must do it all right every time.

Eric [/b]

Yep...this is true!
Shooting over 35 yards takes a different "eye"....especially when shooting instinctively.

An average 8" group at 45 yards is dang good and doesn't come easy.

The golfer hole thing,leaning into the target with the shoulders facing the target prior to and at the beginning of the draw so far that you feel the need to come out of that stance after you reach anchor. Like John Schulz said "that bow arm shoulder, stays in line with the target you are shooting at. This never changes."  Quite often I also see a sort of neck tucking and the bow arm shoulder coming up unnaturally high towards the neck when this happens with lots of people.  Mixing the Hill grip, swing draw and bent bow arm with Terry Green's alignment philosophy is the right combination with a straight grip bow to keep unwanted postures and body motions under control.

[khardrunner]

I have a birth defect in my right shoulder...hence the swap to LH. This does limit my ability to use/control that shoulder. But I think I see what you are saying with the facing the target. I feel like I have the shoulder pointed correctly, but it seems as though that really happens near the end of my draw. It's very hard to tell since I am not used to facing with my right shoulder forward.

Even though I am ambidextrous and have no dominant eye, when I switched to mostly left handed shooting I found that I needed to work on every aspect of my shooting, one thing at a time. I also found that no matter what I do, I have a 1/2" shorter draw left handed than right handed, neck rotation limits and possibly my arms are not the same length or maybe my head is not symmetrical.  The hardest part was learning which way to duck when going through thick cover with my back quiver on and which foot to step forward with when getting into a shooting situation after a stalk.  It is amazing how often that one extra clumsy step can blow a stalk.

[john gilbert]

Referencing a punch, I dont think is a good analogy to bow shooting and the bow arm. A punch is dynamic. A bow arm is not, at least it shouldnt be. And, there could even be a good argument against a punch being at its strongest when two inches from full extension. A punch starts from the feet, hips, through the shoulders and ends up at the fist. Joe Louis, Ali, and especially George Foreman, did their best work when thier punches were at the end of thier available extension.

[swampthing]

I don't think I have ever heard those old timer instruct one to fully extend the bow arm. Try to move your fully extended bowa arm aroud as you were tracking moving game, now put a kink in it..... much better.

[Jacquesbonin]

John, how true your statment is. A punch is made absolutely from the ground up! As a young man I boxed and was very adept.  I do believe my ability with a bow in my hand has some of it's strength in all the stiff jabs I sent out over years. although there are other aspects to shooting and shooting form that one should address. Such as learning to plant the feet, roughly shoulder width apart, aligning the bow shoulder in line with the shot to be taken, next is very important, facing the target with the head slightly tilted, note the head angle and string angle should match,in other words one dictates the other, then a spot is picked and defined, then the slow but steady swing with the bow arm, all the while draw the bow slightly slower than than the bow arm swing into position, as the bow arm stops line up with both elevation and line-up draw the last 5 or 6 inches, hitting achor then a split second on target at full draw, then a clean release, all the while burning a hole in the target where you want that arrow pierce the target, picking a nice consistant rhythm, time after time, so many times it becomes automatic when in a clutch situation while hunting and something unexpectedly pops up and you go into action without thought or hesitation. The way it happens in all my dreams as I bring down trophy animal after trophy animal. Just as the compound shooter has his or ritual so should the traditional shooter, all shots are built on a foundation of repeated actions. They have to done with conviction, without errors,don't over practrice and develope bad habits, the best practice could be as simple as one perfect shot at a time. If you can't string 10 perfect shots in a row, try three perfect shots and put everything away and try later, you'll benefit much more by taking one,two or three perfect shot than 20 mediocre shots, all you are doing is reinforcing bad shooting! Keep the faith and it will all come togrther, when it needs to. Thanks,Jacques

[WESTBROOK]

Hey Tony...when did you move up to Petosky??

[john gilbert]

I am with you Jacques! I too, was a Golden Glover in me youth.

I suppose no certain style is absolute, for everyone. FOR ME, and I can only speak to that, a fully extended bow arm works. Not that a crook in my arm would not work better if I mastered it. I just cant seem to master it.LOL
I know more than a few folks who do pretty well with the bow arm extended. I often wonder if the bent arm of Howard Hill wasnt due to the fact he used short arrows as so many folks have lamented. But, I am not really fixated on shootin like ole Howard anyways. Just tryin to stay out the way, and do what works best for me, like we all do.

[Nate Steen .]

John, I referenced a jab or karate punch which are not the same as an all out boxing punch.  The idea was to get the proper feel of the shoulder deltoid muscle working.  Also, the entire shot sequence from swing up to release and follow through should be dynamic.  If it is at all static then you aren't fluid enough to take full benefit of the Hillstyle shooting method, which allows good accuracy in all situations and positions.

Hill usually swung his bow up above the finished line of aim and then settled down and lined things up just before release.  I think this was a result of proper backtension.

Khard....what I see in your video is the classic "I want to make sure I do everything right shot".  It looks pretty good but you aren't handling the weight well enough to lean into the shot and be fluid.  You have to kinda 'horse' the bow back to full draw the last few inches (probably subconsciously) and that results in a long, drawn out form.  Lean into the shot like you would lean over a shotgun to shoot a quail or pheasant. Tilt your head forward over your arrow like you would over the barrel of the shotgun.....  Watch Hill and other good longbow shots...they look as if you could take the bow out of their hands at full draw and slip a shotgun in there and the form wouldn't change.

 

[Nate Steen .]

Look at that last photo and see how much Hill's wrist is bent.  But he says in his teaching to grip the bow like you would pick up a heavy suitcase....do that and you will notice that your wrist will naturally straighten out with the weight pulling down.....so what do you do?  contradicting statements from Hill?

I don't believe so...  What I believe was lost in translation was the fact of the fingers.  Picking up a suitcase pulls the hande into the pads of the fingers and hangs there.  You control the suitcase by the fingers, not wrist or palm.  Imitate this feeling when shooting the bow using the pads of the fingers and you will pull the bow back into the meat of the hand/palm and you will be squeezing the bow directly in line back to belly as I said before.  Now you can squeeze firmly with no torque.  Hill said to a friend once ( I can't remember who) that the secret to his style was in his hands, and he showed that person how he could change the tiller of the bowlimbs by how he squeezed the bow handle.  here's a photo of the bow into the meat of the hand with the thumb knuckle off to the side like is evidenced in all the photos and videos I've seen of Hill.  His first thumb knuckle was not in line with the belly as some people state, there is lots of evidence proving that.

 

[khardrunner]

I certainly am trying to do everythig as right as i can   . That is also why I am looking for a weight reduction on the schulz. Hopefully Ill continue to get better and it will all work out

[john gilbert]

great points Nate, as usual. I suppose you are correct in that the swing draw, bow arm is dynamic. But wouldnt that not be the case once the "aim" is finished and the bow arm is in line to the target?
I was trying to say that at the moment of release the bow arm is still. Well as still as an arm can be anyhow. In that pic, it is clear that the thumb is deep in that grip. I shoot with a fully broken wrist, but my thumb not that deep. I rarely hit my forearm, so I assumed that would be the correct way. But, I am always looking to improve. Thanks Nate

[Nate Steen .]

it just takes time and practice.

[ChrisM]

Quick question I have seen alot of talk about grip but what I have not seen that I need info on is what to do with the bottom lobe of the heel of the hand.  The lower part of your hand has a lobe that connects to the thumb and one that is on the pinkie side.  The latter is what I am talking about.  Where should this be in relation to the handle?

[Mushin]

I'm new here guys,great threads. Didn't know there were so many of us. Paul Mchargue

One of the tricky things that I constantly work on is control of the draw length. Tonight, shooting left handed with a really loose draw open shoulders, an extra lean, the whole shoot through a hole in the brush down low thing I would get a 25" inch draw, with my wife watching she would say, 'short'. I would then stretch it to 25.5" and it felt long. Then shooting through the same hole in the sunflower patch, I allowed the arrow to get above the mark on the swing up and with a very bent bow arm hit my normal left handed 26" , I am 26.25" right handed, easy and it felt short and fluid. I said to my wife '$^#*&%$ I drew short again', she said "nope, dead on". So then I held it for a second or two so she could see how short I was, (not net length arrows, aluminums cut to broadhead length, I said "see, short." She said "you were right at 26" then you got a half inch more before you let go". It is amazing how much that bow arm shoulder makes or breaks the draw length. To get the right tension when my form was breaking down I used say 'bend your arm and get a half inch longer draw'. Bending the arm and doing what I called a palm thrust at the target, (a thing I learned when taking American karate lessons in my teens, the open hand shot to breast bone) set me in that optimum strong position.  I remembered that tonight from 30 years back and grooved my draw back to where I like it. The worst thing is when the shoulder is not engaged, the neck and head are jamming in, and the hand off position. That equals a funny looking, short weak draw for me and no amount of stretching in that position gets a much better draw, aim or release. I wonder what I did when I shot heavy target recurves with sights to have that 28.5" draw, it is impossible now, for a 5' 9" midget like me, to get that far back even with my 45 pound recurve, I would take my ear off.

[Jacquesbonin]

As Nate alluded to Howard and his swing draw, started low and slightly faster than his drawing. As he came up his bowarm lining the arrow slightly right of the impact line then he rose slightly above the shot elevation and in a reverse candy cane shape continued to swing over and inline with the impact point finishing his draw straight back the last 5 or 6"s, hit his anchor and was then on target ready to release. Now what actually happens is Howard was checking the bow arm extension, making sure he extented correctly, next he was rising aboe the elevation needed to hit the target, then lowering the bow arm when in line and drawing sligthly before finishing the last  of his draw, PRELOADING the muscles involved in the process, much like every on the same plane as a coin. He arms and elbows were so align, he couldn't produce a more stable or stronger shooting form, he was ready every time and spot on at rediculously difficult shots under pressure and did so totally relaxed and in total control of every aspect of the shot, reguardles of the difficulty. It must have been an incredible power to possess. I will say,this thread has been an eye opener for many, those who understand and those who are skepticle. Remember as much as we discuss, put down the knowns, go out and practice improve our form and our shoting and possibly make goals and achieve them. There will only be one HOWARD HILL! Hope you enjoy these threads as much as I do. I know, I am not a writer and cannot express in words as well as some of you, I want say to Nate for his effort and well said explainations, he has render, Thanks Nate very well done! Later,Jacques

P.S. I had the opportunity to read Howards personal diary, as Jerry  wanted me to read the part that explains his method of the shot and it explain the sequence very much as I described, Howard didn't mince words he was direct and to the point. One that writes a diary daily wouldn't lie to himself, as he is the audience!