HH bug got me ... Part One!

[Mudd]

Khardrunner "How do I get to where I can focus on the spot?"

Once you get your form to the point it no longer requires any of your attention then you can change your focus to the spot/hair that you want to place your arrow. (IMHO)

Muscle memory is an awesome tool to have in your controlled tool box.

God bless,Mudd

[khardrunner]

Thats what i was thinking. I guess he more appropriate question is how lon does that take? I want to hunt with this bow. I wont hint until I am comfortable shooting at a spot... You get the idea. I have a week or so until gun season (i can hunt bow) and late archery starts after Christmas. I dont want to have to take the curve out.

[Mudd]

Kyle every person is different in that respect.

Like learning to ride a bicycle... some folks learn without ever falling even once then there are folks like me who had to skin my knees a few times before I got it.

The only way you'll find out when you reach that point/place is by doing it.

There's now other way and no way to predict how long it will take you to get there.

I personally felt as it was going to take forever for me but then one day it just clicked.

[Steve Clandinin]

Kyle Mudds so right,when it catches you'll know.For many years I battled with TP,almost packed it in .Then I went down to almost zero weight to completely develop my form and total mental control,I prevailed and won.I now shoot alot like your video,maybe holding a tad longer and on longer shots a little longer still.With full mental control I now control my shot depending on the situation.Hang in there my friend,keep positive and have fun.Don't beat yourself up over it.If having a poor day,put it down take a break and just think on it,best of luck.

[swampthing]

You can see what I'm talking about by watching any vid of Howard or John shoot, no holding at anchor. Simple, direct, to the point. Period
   Keep practicing that till you "know what your arrow is doing at 30yds."

[mikebiz]

I have to say I give Kyle a TON of praise for putting his form up there for all of us to see.  As you all know not many of us have had the guts to do that.  In doing so Kyle has set himself up to hear both positive and negative comments.  And he's done that gracefully.  Keep up the form work.  Some of us get there faster than others.  I'm sure there are lots of guys out there that have shot Hill-style longbows for years that still don't do it right.  It's evident with all the handshock buzz we hear.  Grip it properly and you feel nothing.  Grip it wrong and it can zap you.  I'm fairly new to the game as well and try to work on form everyday.  I've learned a lot from many on TG.  And I try to apply it each time I shoot.  

And swampthing, you've given a lot of great suggestions.  However, I for one do have a bit of an issue with your unwillingness to post your own form video.  I'm not sure why you won't so I won't speculate.  Most of us, including Kyle have seen videos of Howard and John.  Maybe something isn't translating from their videos to Kyle's mind and the minds of other folks here.  I think taking a bunch of words about form and turning it into a real living action is quite difficult.  Your form video could answer a lot of questions for all of us.

[swampthing]

Because you cannot see the feeling of "dynamic/fluid tension," when one draws aims and shoots, unless your extremely critical.  
  I humbly, would rather you learn it from the best. Using his form as a guide and then analyzing it with help of his and John' s writings and vids as well. I have no problem posting it, but what I do is as they do, swing draw with no holding at full draw.
    Besides if I post my form you will have an out, and be able to just write me off. You won't likely do that with Howard's. This way you will be much more likely to listen, learn, and try, as opposed to question, doubt, and ignore.
All that I have posted comes from their basics of tuning, and shooting. Someone that is having difficulties hitting with equipment that is decently close to tune has form issues, such as arrow clank off the riser that sometimes is and sometimes not there. Arrow too stiff only some of the time? of course not, your not pulling through the shot and you are not pulling it straight back, at the shot he string has to pull the arrow back in line causing the arrow to bank off the riser, equal and opposite reactions at work.

[Brianlocal3]

I notice a slight hold at anchor in some of Howard's videos. So I am lost at the " no pause at anchor" statements. I'll post the vid later

[swampthing]

Look at his later vids, and a lot of the times you will see him just slow down his draw, when it reaches full. Not always stopped, then settled in, and then aimed, and then shot. Even the ones where he appears to pause at anchor you can still see him pull through the shot. When he executes with a dead release, he'll try to use chest expansion or back tension to pull through the shot.
 Not ALWAYS, of course, the shot got what the shot required to get it done.

[Brazos]

I guess I will chime in.  I have found my bow hits EXACTLY where I aimed it.  My only problem is I don't always aim it where I want to hit.  I know in your previous posts you kind of dismissed what Brianlocal3 was suggesting but I also suggest figuring out what your bow is doing and how to aim.  That by no ways means you are going to be a gap shooter.  I wasted a lot of time trying to burn a hole in the spot and not trying to see the arrow.  At the end of the day I am shooting the arrow and it should be paid attention to.  Figure out what your sight picture needs to be, and yes your arrow is in your sight picture, then over time more of you focus will be on the spot.  You have a very accurate set up in your hand but if you can't aim it correctly then you might as well throw rocks.

[Jon Powell]

I too have seen video of Howard holding at anchor for a bit. In one he holds for at least a couple of seconds till he is on target before he releases. To me that just shows that he was in complete control of every shot he made. He didn't just swing up and release as I've heard some advocate.

That said, I'm learning a lot from this discussion. Please keep the information coming, videos too if you have them.

[Brianlocal3]

I am going to sidetrack the current discussion just a bit here.  Since we are going over "proper" shooting of a Hill bow, how do you all grip your bow.  I will say I do not subscribe to most of the "Hill Style Form" I differ in almost every single way except I do use split vision aiming.  When I first got into shooting Straight limbed bows I did not know a Hill grip or what proper grip was and life was great and accuracy was wonderful. Then like an idiot I changed my grip up to "match" what was supposed to be the proper way to hold a Hill bow and things went down Hill FAST, but I got back on track and started gripping like I did previously and my shooting is good again. Thats whats great about archery is that it is SO INDIVIDUAL and different things work for different people. Here are some pics how I grip the bow.

******my wrist angles are not exactly like they are on full draw but these are self photos, I'm speaking mainly to hand on the bow *****
Side view my grip
 

Front View my grip
 

 

Rear View my grip
 

Back/quartering view
 

[Brianlocal3]

Now the way it is explained ALOT and some pics I have found online suggest to hold this way here.

 

 

 

 

This method for ME induced torque, wrist fatique, shock, and sore shoulder/elbow.  To each his own.

[Rossco7002]

I believe some manner of hold at anchor will be necessary for most archers to achieve accuracy at longer ranges.

Some perspective is probably helpful too. Howard was a gifted all round athlete WHO MADE HIS LIVING by shooting and hunting with bow and arrow. He shot full time to hone his skills and became a master of the bow as a result. He could probably hit anchor, come onto target and release much faster than an 'amateur' such as myself.

Trying to replicate his exact style is probably similar to trying to perfect your boxing by emulating Mohamed Ali or mike Tyson. There's a lot of fundamentals to be learned before you can get to that level. For some, it may never happen - they need to develop what works for them.

In my own life the closest comparison I can make is to my own profession. Since leaving school I have carried firearms for a living - to protect my life and that of others. Consequently, I have poured enormous effort into mastering my weapons. Can I draw and shoot at 10 - 15 yards (instinctively) and make a perfect A zone hit. Yes. Double that distance - no. Even with a carbine I need to settle my sight picture before I press through the trigger to make sure of the shot.

This translates into shooting my longbow. I can swing draw and touch off a shot at 10 yards (maybe even 20) and be confident of a good hit. Beyond that I need to settle my sights briefly to make the same, accurate shot. This is the style I have found works for me so I use it.

Based on everything I've been taught in the world of shooting (and I've been instructed by some of the best) deliberate shooting is required (by most) to hit effectively at long range.... Just ask a sniper. Lol

Personally I think Kyle's for is looking good and he's done we'll to post it up for critique. Hitting good at ten yard - great! Not so good at 30 - maybe just slow it down a little.

[Brianlocal3]

As you can tell in the pics of how I actually grip the bow, I have a VERY VERY loose grip on the bow.  And when I actually draw the bow, my hands actually open up even more.  This has produced the best shooting for me.

[khardrunner]

I would love to see more videos. As I work Ill continue to post them too. They are much more helpful than worded descriptions.

Please dont see it as me dismissing what he said without consideration. I understand and am applying it in a different way. The concept is being used.

I had a great conversation this afternoon on the phone as well and i am learning from all of this. Keep it coming!

[Brianlocal3]

 
Please dont see it as me dismissing what he said without consideration. I understand and am applying it in a different way. The concept is being used.

I don't think you were dismissing the suggestion.  I just think you know how you want to shoot.  I do think you may have an idea in your head that gap is a static target shooting method, but I shoot moving targets, a lot actually, and its all used the same.

[Brianlocal3]

Even thought it was gun training the principles still transfer over to Archery.  Sam Dunham did a very very detailed write up of the similarities

[Goshawkin]

Originally posted by Rossco7002:

Some perspective is probably helpful too. Howard was a gifted all round athlete WHO MADE HIS LIVING by shooting and hunting with bow and arrow. He shot full time to hone his skills and became a master of the bow as a result. He could probably hit anchor, come onto target and release much faster than an 'amateur' such as myself.
 

Pretty much exactly what I was just going to write.
I've seen a couple videos of Howard's trick shots where you can clearly see him pacing off the distance of the shot.He knew exactly where his secondary spot was at that distance,and after who knows how many thousands of shots at that distance,could probably just swing up onto that spot pretty quick.
He said something like "anyone could miss the first shot but there was no excuse missing the second".You can see how much you missed by and adjust your spot up or down.
I think after all that shooting he was just able to settle into "the spot" much quicker than most,especially on those set up(known distance) trick shots.

[Brianlocal3]

rossco,
I was trained at FLETC and a few others in firearms and understand what you mean.

Even thought it was gun training the principles still transfer over to Archery.  Sam Dunham did a very very detailed write up of the similarities [/QB][/QUOTE]

*******Note for anyone who read my post before I edited it.  It was not meant to be pretentious, just lack of proper wording so I have changed it.******