HH bug got me ... Part One!

[toddster]

I got my Dave Johnson bow, and as all sais before on here it is sweet.  I like Nate's sunset Hill better, but mr. Johnson bow is probably the second best I have shot.  We exchanged emails and phone calls several time's as he was getting the grip the way I wanted.  A great bowyer, fine gentleman.  If you don't have one and looking for a great Hill style bow give mr. johnson a call.

[Brianlocal3]

I have to ask, what about the sunset do you like better than the Johnson

[Bob B.]

Good question Brian ... I would like to know as well.

Bob.

[akbowbender]

I think I'm getting on track with my N.M. Classic. My arrows are flying nicely for a change. What a difference decent form makes!

I just got my copy of Dave Miller's book. It is mostly geared towards beginning archers, but there are a few bits of wisdom that can be gleaned from it that are useful for more advanced, yet struggling Hill Style longbow shooters.

I hope that my shooting will improve enough that I will feel confident enough to show up at some of the lower 48 longbow shoots. I'd particularly like to go to the Great Lakes Longbow Invitational, since it is held close to where my folks live, and to the North American Longbow Safari.

[toddster]

Keep in mind, I am still playing with it, love the grip he made me.  I feel that my sunset is just a sweeter drawing bow, like butter.  The sunset is 50# at my draw weight, and it feel's like 40, I even checked it on my and brother's scale.  The Johnson is 55# sweet and smooth just not as much.  I think once I shoot the johnson more and I make some arrow up for it will be better.  My pointability with the sunset is dead on.

[Brianlocal3]

Thank you toddster.

[Rossco7002]

I thought Johnson only built bows 45lbs and under now?

[rushlush]

I just received a new to me Pete George, man does it zip an arrow. Will try to get some pics up soon.

[Brianlocal3]

I want to try a Pete george

[stik&string]

Mr. Johnson told me 50# and under, but he was a very nice man to talk to and very responsive to all my questions even though he knew I wasn't interested in a lighter weight bow.

[tradlongbow]

Congratulations!

Raffle winners posted of the Howard Hill arrows with broadheads!

See you at the HillGang Hog Hunt 2013!

[Brianlocal3]

I have been talkin to a buddy about limb cores and wanted you opinion on this.  Im not a fan of bamboo because it feels buzzy and whippet on release, but I love the smooth draw of it. I love how solid red elm feels on release and just thuds, but it is noticable stiffer on draw.  Which got me to thinking Yew is a great middle ground, because it's a solid wood not grass.  How does red cedar perform as a Core wood, and what are its characteristics as compared to boo , yew and red elm? Thanks

Brian, those sensations you feel would probably be as different from bow to bow just as likely as any given core material.  If a light bow wood such as cedar has much action left at the end of the shot it could have just as much buzz as anything else in my experience with it. Yew can be everything from harsh to buzzy to sublime. It is all in the tillering. My favorite yew from a Hill blank is remarkable, but I did rework it a bit after it was initially completed. I was rather surprised by how such a small change in the limbs and tiller could make so much difference in the overall feel of the bow.

[Brianlocal3]

Let me note: I have never shot an all yew core bow, but it was explained to me as having the same smooth draw like boo, but a more solid feel in release as opposed to the boos buzzy feel ( I get it and some others, I'm not saying everyone feels what I do) I equate that too yew is a solid wood as opposed to the "airy"or hollow boo. Now since cedar is a light wood, but yet still solid, does it perform and feel similar to yew?

I hope that cleared up my thought process some

[Brianlocal3]

Pavan,
Thank you for your reply, your experience is always welcome to read

[Bud B.]

Originally posted by stik&string:
Mr. Johnson told me 50# and under, but he was a very nice man to talk to and very responsive to all my questions even though he knew I wasn't interested in a lighter weight bow.

Mine is marked 49@28 but it scaled at 54@28 if I did it right. That's OK by me. That cedar really throws an arrow.

[Goshawkin]

Originally posted by rushlush:
I just received a new to me Pete George, man does it zip an arrow. Will try to get some pics up soon.

[Overspined]

Toddster,  I think most any bow that draws 5# lighter will feel more like butter. The lighter I go, the more buttery they get.  

I've shot a ton of different Hill and Hill style bows, and PAVAN's thoughts about tiller and design seem valid.  Some bows are finished and just have IT, and others miss the mark.  I've had identical bows from the same bowyer, and they feel totally different, and shoot that way too.

It's not always the species of wood.  Of the Howard Hill line, IMO the Wesley is their top dog when i compare it to the Cheetah, Redman, and Big 5.  I base that on owning and shooting them.  The tiller and bamboo seem to outperform the rest in feel at every point, drawing and shooting.  Tiller a 5 lam Redman the same way, with the same limb lam tapers, and who knows, maybe it's the same.  That's ONLY with HHA bows.  

Overall, I've not noticed a significant difference in arrow speed or where the arrow goes with most any of them.  The only one that Ive shot and is definitely slower, but is a pleasure to shoot, is the Miller Split Bamboo.  Take the glass away and WOW.  That bamboo is smooth.

Turay did some sort of measurements of densities of species of wood. He said the really dense woods seemed to add hand shock, like Osage in the core, but most of the woods, and bamboo, had really close properties. Ash, elm, maple are all really common solid core woods, and bamboo of course, and I know he uses some of these a lot.

A friend was saying how smooth one of his Hill style  bows was compared to another, from another bowyer.  When he put them on the scale, they were marked the same but the one was heavier than marked and gave him the feel of a tougher draw, which was true in fact.

[mikebiz]

toddster, your comments bring up a point I've been thinking about a lot lately.  Though these bows are both Hill-style, American Semi-longbows, they are quite a bit different in design and materials.  I think your experience and "feel" of the two bows is a direct result of the "string follow" limb profile.

You say the Sunset Hill is sweeter and more buttery on the draw.  I think what you are experiencing here is the magic of the "string follow" design and why it is desirable in my opinion.  I believe that the difference you are feeling with the Sunset Hill is created by the lessening of string tension at the onset of the draw.  I definitely notice a smoother, more fluid onset of draw on my string follow bow.  That carries smoothly through the completion of the draw.

In contrast Dave Johnson's bow is probably backset as that is how he ususally produces them.  I had an email conversation about that with him the other day.  He said he usually induces 3/4 inch of backset on his bows.  That's not much, but I've had similar amounts of backset on several bows some Yew, some Bamboo.  There's definitely a noticeable heft at the onset of draw.  It requires a little more strength to get the string in motion.  I certainly know that I'm pulling a little harder initially.  They are just a hair "buzzier" to my bowhand, but most of that seems to do with me correctly gripping the bow.  If I do everything right backsets are completely silent throughout the grip.

I wonder if the better "pointability" of the Sunset Hill is a result of the riser grip differences (something else to talk about later) or the string follow?  Do you think that your ability to aim and release is better with the Sunset or are you more accurate and precise with the Sunset?
I bet if you are more accurate and precise that it correlates with the forgiving nature of the design
Howard appreciated.  I think being "calm" in the hand really helps my shooting.  I feel I gotta be a little more on the ball so to speak, with a backset bow.

As for the difference in materials I haven't shot a Red Cedar bow, so I can't speak to its feel.  If I had to take a guess I'd say the bamboo bows will be a little more fluid and smooth.  My yew bows have felt darn near as good.  But they were both backset, so they had that going against them      

I love this technical talk.  Put your thinking caps on    

[mikebiz]

Good stuff, Overspined. I was typing while you were posting.