HH bug got me ... Part One!

[two4hooking]

Originally posted by Lambow:


Hill also tought them to shoot with a dead release, while he himself, shot with a more fluid pull-through release.

Whoa....So Schulz and Hill had different releases?  I beg to differ.  John explains that your release "deviates" on moving objects and you can clearly see this in the first shot of his film.  

In this film you can certainly see Hill with a pretty relaxed hand sticking in the face in the first slo-mo.
 

Other shots show his hand coming back markedly.

I think they were both on the same page and could vary their release as needed....and I think that for instructional purposes John taught the stcik to your face follow through to help promote initial good form.

Just because the release stays in the face, it is far from a dead release.

[Wannabe1]

Congrats Rob on the quiver! Now how about a side pic to boot?!  

[Green]

Here you go TW.....this was after wet forming, drying, and then dying with Fiebing's.

   

Here she is with 3 heavy coats of Pitch Blend, dried, and ready to go to work.  The pitch blend relaxed the wet formed leather and allowed me to open the interior a bit after the wet forming.  Pefectly shaped now and plenty of arrows can come and go with ease.  Bud's pouch is of a lighter weight of the same leather, and is perfectly sized to hold a large ziploc baggie, leatherman, and spare bowstring.

   

   

Bud's leathercraft is exacting and well thought out, right down to the removable leather backed shearling bottom and removable pouch.

   

   

Thanks so much for your talent and hard work Bud!  This quiver will see many days afield and will be with me always.        
   

[Moots]

That looks great!

[Lambow]

Originally posted by two4hooking:
   

Originally posted by Lambow:


Hill also tought them to shoot with a dead release, while he himself, shot with a more fluid pull-through release.

Whoa....So Schulz and Hill had different releases?  I beg to differ.  John explains that your release "deviates" on moving objects and you can clearly see this in the first shot of his film.  

In this film you can certainly see Hill with a pretty relaxed hand sticking in the face in the first slo-mo.
       

Other shots show his hand coming back markedly.

I think they were both on the same page and could vary their release as needed....and I think that for instructional purposes John taught the stcik to your face follow through to help promote initial good form. [/b]

I have an old VHS tape around here somewhere, that features one of Hill's shorts, that's called "Archery"
In one part, he's teaching several young women how to shoot. In that, he's advocating the dead release to them, and that's the way they were shooting.

Schulz, tought that it was permissible for the string hand to recoil back behind the face, when shooting at moving targets... all the stationary targets I've seen him shoot, were with a dead release.

One of the things Hill told the Schulz boy's was "upon release both hands do nothing"

I looked at the film... in the first segment of the slo-mo shot, the camera switched away from Hill to the arrow, at the split second the arrow left the bow.... couldn't tell what the release hand did on that shot, but the other scenes you could. They were a dynamic release, on a stationary target.

[Overspined]

Just watching those videos is absolutely humbling.  My bows are mere women's bows!  Oh well.  The critters don't know the difference.

[Brianlocal3]

WOW, lots going on lately.
Beautiful quiver you got there and Bud my friend you are a very talented man!!!

Great discussion on the Hill style of shooting too.

I'm in Nicks camo and I believe Howard was a split vision shooter who engrained it so well it became second nature, much like Byron teaches.  I WISH I could shoot in such a fluid manner, but alas I "set up" my shots and pretty much since meeting Byron when I was 8 I have adopted his "style" thorough out the years and adapted it to my own liking.

I am envious of those who have learned the fluidity of the Hill shot.

[Goshawkin]

Go to the "Legends and pioneers" section on here and watch Howard's video,"Getting the hawk"
Slow motion and a great angle to see his release,back tension and bow arm.Watch any of his short films where he's shooting something off of someone's head(Those shots would probably be the ones he wouldn't want to miss the most on!) and you'll see his hand just slide back on his face a little.

[Brianlocal3]

P.S. the new job in KY is seriously cramping my shooting. I have been called out every night this week and am feaning for some shoring time, so thank you everyone for helping me keep my sanity!!

[Goshawkin]

Originally posted by Brianlocal3:
WOW, lots going on lately.
Beautiful quiver you got there and Bud my friend you are a very talented man!!!

Great discussion on the Hill style of shooting too.

I'm in Nicks camo and I believe Howard was a split vision shooter who engrained it so well it became second nature, much like Byron teaches.  I WISH I could shoot in such a fluid manner, but alas I "set up" my shots and pretty much since meeting Byron when I was 8 I have adopted his "style" thorough out the years and adapted it to my own liking.

I am envious of those who have learned the fluidity of the Hill shot.

Yep,I think he was just able to get to the correct sight picture very fast,from ALOT of shooting.In some of his films you can see him pacing off the distance before a trick shot. In those cases,I bet he knew exactly where his arrow tip had to be in relation to the target,I'd also bet that he had phenomenal eyesight.All the best pro pitchers,hitters,etc do.Not many guys can throw like a NFL quarterback and not too many are going to shoot as good as Howard Hill either.

and Brian,get out of my camo,LOL! I'm going to need it for hunting season!  :p

I was told once that the pacing off of the trick shot had to do with the distance as much as to where the arrow oscillations were when the shot was practiced.  At those closer ranges, a step back or closer would mean every arrow would miss to either side. A dime is an easy thing to miss.

[Bud B.]

I like that dye color Rob. Which one of Fiebing's is it?

And it looks like the forming process went well. With those hot Texas days the drying time between steps was minimal I'm sure.

[Brianlocal3]

and Brian,get out of my camo,LOL! I'm going to need it for hunting season!   :p  [/QB][/QUOTE]


LOL,
I just got back to the hotel from my nightmare repair call and checked in only to laugh so hard my side hurts.  I meant "CAMP" not "camo",  I swear Hill brothers Nick and I are not that close.  HA HA

[Green]

Thanks Bud....yes, the forming went well and this is the perfect time of year to do it as Mother Nature's oven is always on HIGH.  Lol.  

Dye is Fiebing's tan as I have several bottles of it around for dying shafts.  I almost went medium brown, but then realized that with 3 coats of Pitch Blend and subsequent coats over time, I'd likely end up with something too dark for my liking.  

I wore it quite a bit yesterday and am very, very happy with the way this quiver fits and functions.  You did an outstanding job Bud, and I couldn't be prouder to use a beautiful quiver made by a friend.

As for the discussion of Howard and John's shooting....watching many of the films there's one thing I don't see....any hint of collapse.  That means proper use of back tension and continued pulling...as noted above we are able to see recoil in those "apple" shots.  Maybe not excessive pulling as taught today, but proper tension nonetheless.

[Bud B.]

I have found, for me anyway, that pulling through the shot allows me to be more consistent in my shooting process. If I think too much about anchor and have a slight pause things seem to go poorly. If I pull through, everything else being what it should be, then my groups are tighter and arrow flight looks much better. I have also tried the split vision and found I am more likely what trad archers define as truly instinctive. My point in my secondary vision is so far below the target at my hunting ranges that I cannot get the "feel" for it and groups are horrible. I have been successful at keeping my eye on the spot I want the arrow to hit while trying the split or secondary vision method. If I forget about the arrow but have it aligned under my eye it feels more natural for my shooting abilities. Out past 15 yards I don't feel comfortable shooting at game anyway unless absolute confidence would push me to do so.

Shooting at paper and dots is trying. Shooting at a 3d target helps me see how this all plays out in a more realistic environment. Add an alert deer into it and that's why I have a personal limit of about 15 yards, +/-.

I might get some of that tan Rob. I like the tone the leather took.

Even though I only draw a bit over 26 inches, anchor just past the corner of my mouth and shoot 9 to 10 grains per pound, my point on is way out there, over 60 yards with my faster bows like my Schulz.  That put my point well below the target at anything 20 yards and under. Hill stressed it over and over, imaginary secondary aiming point. Even though he explained his aiming in very fundamental terms in Hunting The Hard Way, he also gave advice to not get too fundamental in the aiming thing. Like Schulz said, even Hill could not be picking a specific secondary spot, putting his arrow tip on it and then release when shooting some of the close range trick shots. But I would bet in his secondary sight he saw something familiar.  Just like when I have someone tossing pennies for me, I pretty much can see if I am going to hit the penny or the penny tosser when I release.

[awbowman]

60 yard point on,  how much are you pulling to achieve this pavan?

[Mudd]

Pavan if I ever get stupid enough, please remind me that I do not want to be your "penny tosser"!

Hahaha!!!    

[Overspined]

Pavan!  Every one of your posts has a hidden gem!  What was the name of the last penny tosser that turned up missing? I'll bet the next one rhymes with DUDD...