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Author Topic: HH bug got me ... Part One!  (Read 153889 times)

Offline droz il

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3060 on: June 05, 2011, 08:55:00 AM »
Congrats on your new bow.
I got a call yesterday and should have my Miller "Old Tom" by then end of the month.
David Miller Old Tom 66" string follow 46@28
HH Robin Hood LH 68" 45@28
Martin Viper  RH 64" 45@28
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Offline mikebiz

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3061 on: June 05, 2011, 09:51:00 AM »
That was it Rob.  Thanks for posting it again.
"...and last of all I leave to you the thrill of life and the joy of youth that throbs a moment in a well bent bow, then leaps forth in the flight of an arrow." - Saxton Pope

Offline Mudd

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3062 on: June 05, 2011, 09:55:00 AM »
Hi Mike, How are you and your Hill getting along?

God bless,Mudd
Trying to make a difference
Psalm 37:4
Roy L "Mudd" Williams
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Archery isn't something I do, it's who I am!
The road to "Sherwood" makes for an awesome journey.

Offline Overspined

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3063 on: June 05, 2011, 10:24:00 AM »
My dad has 2 reverse handle northern mist whispers. He has wrist problems with arthritis and he torques standard hill bows, so he switched.  He really likes them and I think they shoot great once I get settled. One is lamboo and the other is elm or ash cores with beautiful maple back and belly.

Offline mikebiz

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3064 on: June 05, 2011, 03:27:00 PM »
Howdy Mudd.  My Hill(s) and I are getting along just fine, thank you.  That Cheetah is a beautiful piece.  Not many native woods can match the beauty of Juniper.  To be honest I haven't been shooting much lately, but I need to get back into it.  Gonna try applying Rob D's grip to my form.  Wish me luck.  Hope you're well.
"...and last of all I leave to you the thrill of life and the joy of youth that throbs a moment in a well bent bow, then leaps forth in the flight of an arrow." - Saxton Pope

Offline MT Longbow

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3065 on: June 05, 2011, 06:35:00 PM »
Which page of this thread does RDS describe his HH grip style...Pics??


Thanks
Craig Ekins;
70" -60LB "Robin Hood",string follow  #47 of 50. LE
68" -70Lb Redman, string follow all YEW. "Yewlogy"
68" -75Lb@28. 3 lam Boo. String Follow- "LegendStick"

Ron Maulding : 68" Big Horn , Boo and Osage. 78#@27.

David Miller: Old Tom

Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3066 on: June 05, 2011, 08:54:00 PM »
in the following rap, i am NOT telling anyone how THEY should shoot a stick bow.  i'm explaining, in my own thoughts and words, how and why i approach holding a longbow at full draw.

imho, in the best of all worlds, there should be one pressure point of contact 'tween the back of the bow handle, as close to the arrow shelf as possible to reduce any unwanted leverage, and some single point of the bowhand's palm.

no, not the entire palm of the hand, just one point. if you reference asbell's latest gem, 'advanced instinctive shooting for bowhunting', you'll see the best general area for the bowhand pressure point nicely depicted.  the sweet spot is somewhere 'tween the thumb and forefinger, and at or about the base of the thumb.

once you have found that sweet pressure point spot (which should be almost too easy to feel), the rest of the hand - the palm and fingers - exert ALMOST ZERO PRESSURE on the handle. this allows the bow to pivot on your bow hand's pressure point and will prevent the common 'heeling' of the bowhand on release that cause so many bad arrows.

the bowhand's forefinger and thumb touch, thus holding the bow from punching out of yer bowhand upon release.

this type of bowhand pressure point also allows the bottom of the bowhand (pinky et al) to angle slightly away from the riser/arrow shelf, which gives lots of bowstring clearance on release. it also demands that you need to do what you should be doing all the time - using yer back muscles to 'push-pull' as you aim and release - this is absolutely critical for all archers, targeteers and hunters ... most archers fail to use their back muscles and their efforts are relegated to hit and miss, mostly miss..

you can use this type of single pressure point grip with most any type of handle grip - straight, dished, soft locator or recurve pistol.  all serious target archers use a single pressure point grip.  it's simply the most consistent of all ways of shaking hands with a bow handle.  there is NO reason why a bowhunter couldn't/shouldn't employ this same single pressure point grip style.  there's nothing unwieldy about it that excludes the bowhunting community and *many* bowhunters use it - some without even knowing.

it is easier to find that pressure spot with a soft locator grip. you can wrap a straight grip with one turn of 1/8" leather right under where your pressure is located for quicker reference, as mentioned by mr. asbell.

i won't talk about the wrist or bow arm placements. those are matters for each of us to suss out and decide what's best. what works for me may not work for you, in those two criteria.

however, the 'single point of bow handle/bow hand' matter is, imho, irrefutable - it's physically the most consistent approach to allowing the flow of energy during release to consistently move the bow in one direction.

this is due to just that one, SMALL pressure point.

if you have a broader pressure point, or multiple pressure points, you can easily see how consistency becomes much more difficult to achieve as that type of grip is too easy to "float" the bow hand's pressure point at various locations on the bow handle, thus adding variable torque to the release. i see this ALL the time with archers who have good shooting potential but are being held back by a bowhand that's "sloppy" and quite inconsistent, and that leads to spraying arrows all over the butt (if the butt indeed gets hit) as opposed to far closer arrow groupings.  the same is true for archers that are decent to pretty darn good "shots" but have those occasional "flyers" or who have good and bad accuracy days.  look to the bow hand.

there are MANY factors of form that affect consistent accuracy. imho, it all starts with picking up the bow and how ya hold it. it's the first thing we all do before we even reach for an arrow.

hope some of this rap makes for more consistent shooting for some of you good folk.

typical straight "choke" grip, with heeled palm pressure  ............ versus ............ single thumb base pressure point grip

       
IAM ~ The only government I trust is my .45-70 ... and my 1911.

Offline MT Longbow

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3067 on: June 05, 2011, 10:42:00 PM »
RDS..do you use this grip style on your straight grip Hill bows?  when I do, my bow really rings after the shot.  NOT picking...just asking!!!
Craig Ekins;
70" -60LB "Robin Hood",string follow  #47 of 50. LE
68" -70Lb Redman, string follow all YEW. "Yewlogy"
68" -75Lb@28. 3 lam Boo. String Follow- "LegendStick"

Ron Maulding : 68" Big Horn , Boo and Osage. 78#@27.

David Miller: Old Tom

Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3068 on: June 06, 2011, 05:31:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MT Longbow:
RDS..do you use this grip style on your straight grip Hill bows?  when I do, my bow really rings after the shot.  NOT picking...just asking!!!
i employ this grip on all bows, no matter what the style or handle grip shape.

by 'ringing', you mean 'vibrations', correct?
IAM ~ The only government I trust is my .45-70 ... and my 1911.

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3069 on: June 06, 2011, 06:06:00 AM »
As I attempt to learn this "grip" (no expert for sure) I am coming to the point of understanding that the "hill grip" is a overall even pressured hold, paying particular attention to two things:
 
First, the "grip it like a suitcase handle" was a quote of a pretty decent archer in his day..so it seems like a good place to start.

The second thing coming to light for me in recent posts here...play with the pressure of the first finger and the pinky finger to lessen or negate vertical torque. (my words) translated "control the bow - don't let the bow control you"  

Additionally I have heard in this thread many times in relation to the "shock" factor, that the grip seems to be the controller of energy (harmonics..?) which is what we feel (or don't feel)or hear upon release and is obviously much more critical in the hill-type bows.  

String type and or brace height can add to your troubles as well.  Mudd played with my Half Breed shooting it with the string that came with the bow..he said it "vibrated" more than his HB so he put on a different FF string and it quieted down to nearly dead silent...

In my mind I can see how shifting the point of pressure from any point at the hand's web to the base of the palm in line with the pinky finger will effectively change the tiller - making the upper or lower limb handle uneven energy in the release...does this make sense??

Rob has his own method and style.  His point of eliminating the pressure of a "choke" grip and transferring as much of the wt of the draw to a single, and smaller point of contact makes perfect sense to me because that is the way I have shot my curves and r/d longbows in the past...but have never shot a straight handle and now, when I "heel down", the recipe changes including my draw length - even drastically (3").  

Rob's looks to me to be a great marriage of styles and it apparently works just dandy for him and, like he has said many times, figure out what works best for you and do it.  

This process of finding what works best for me will include the boiling down all of the collective experience of those of you who have played this game for years.

I thank you all for making the effort to share your experience...it is all good and necessary...imo

Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3070 on: June 06, 2011, 06:37:00 AM »
good discussion points, tony.

imo no, not "control the bow - don't let the bow control you".  for me it's more like "don't try to control the bow, as it can be like trying to grab a tiger by the tail".  

consistency comes from doing as little as possible to control forces that are far greater than we can realistically control *consistently*.  

i give the bow "head" and allow it to do its thing.  my bow hand is there not to control the bow, but to allow it to repeatedly react the same way, shot after shot.  think of the bow hand as part of a shooting machine.  how do shooting machines hold a bow?  basically, one point of contact.  as much as possible, we need to be shooting machines.  heck, we ARE shooting machines!

if you have more than one bow hand pressure point, you will sooner or later torque the bow.  no one's that good, not even hh himself.  :D   i'll wager hh's massive strength did much to actually "control the bow", tame it to his will.  he's one of the few exceptions to the rules of physics.  

a smaller spot of bowhand pressure point means far less excess string/limb energy rolling back into your hand/arm/shoulder/brain.  so the limbs appear to be vibrating more.  and typically, they are - 'cause some of that wasted energy isn't coming back at you.  and as always, it pays to employ a decent weight arrow .....
IAM ~ The only government I trust is my .45-70 ... and my 1911.

Offline petertschantz

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3071 on: June 06, 2011, 07:02:00 AM »
I shot my first 3d tourney yesterday, nice to see a Hill take the trad class!


okay, would have been cooler if there had been others shooting trad, but I still had a blast!

Pete
TwoTracks Ambush 49#@28"

Offline Looper

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3072 on: June 06, 2011, 07:49:00 AM »
In my experience, how a bow is tillered will determine where the best pressure point needs to be.  I agree with Rob that the smallest area of pressure is the best, but, if the pressure point is in an area that allows one limb to release earlier than the other, you'll get hand shock. My Halfbreed has a sweet spot right in the middle of the grip.  I need to shoot that bow with heel pressure in that location.  I end up squeezing lightly with my middle and ring fingers.  I know it's not ideal, but if I shoot with the pressure higher on the grip, I can tell a difference. The bow is  I think the real key is to be consistent.  

When I tiller a bow, I have to make sure that the bow handle is in the correct place on the ledge of the tiller tree and that the hook is on the right spot on the string.  My first bows (self bows), I just centered the handle on the ledge, and hooked the string where my middle finger would go (I shoot split).  I'd then tiller the limbs to where they would release at the same time.  I use a bulbous handle, which I like a lot better than the typical hill grip.  My favorite self bows were/are very dead in my hand at the shot.

My Halfbreed, when put on my tiller tree, has a balance point right in the middle of the handle.  If I move the balance point higher on the grip, the limbs don't release the same.

In contrast, my bows with locator grips, have a balance point in relation to the locator.  They shoot the best with the grip Rob uses.  If you use heel pressure on them, it throws the timing off.

One thing I have found, though, is that if I shoot my Hill with a 3 finger under grip, the bow shoots better with a bow hand pressure point higher up on the grip. I just prefer to shoot split finger.

At any rate, my Halfbreed is one fun bow to shoot.  I'm in the process of picking a bow to hunt with exclusively this year, and it's running neck and neck with a new BBO.

Offline Looper

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3073 on: June 06, 2011, 07:50:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by petertschantz:
I shot my first 3d tourney yesterday, nice to see a Hill take the trad class!


okay, would have been cooler if there had been others shooting trad, but I still had a blast!

Pete
Where was this tournament?

Offline Swamp Yankee

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3074 on: June 06, 2011, 08:07:00 AM »
Didn't Ashbell advocate a different grip (heel down) for longbow handles?  I always thought most longbows were tillered for a pressure point in the middle of the handle, where recurves are tillered for a pressure point at the deepest part of the grip..  While I agree the most forgiving type if grip would be with the pressure all at the base of the thumb, I wonder how many longbows are actually tillered to be shot that way.
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Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3075 on: June 06, 2011, 08:13:00 AM »
bow tiller ...

yes, a bow should be tillered at the pressure point and for the style of string grip, and at the right place on the string for the tillering hook.  it does pay to make a simple tillering tree and check yer bow, and if it's off, send it to a competent bowyer to retiller it for you.  after having a gajillion hills, i now have but one, "sheba" the  tembo, and i was specific to craig about how i shoot, how to shape sheba's handle, and how to tiller the beastie.  he did precisely what i asked.

on a side note, if i ever need craig to shape me another longbow, i'll be sending him my easton digital bow scale to take all necessary draw weight readings.  seriously.      :readit:         :saywhat:
IAM ~ The only government I trust is my .45-70 ... and my 1911.

Offline petertschantz

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3076 on: June 06, 2011, 09:34:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by looper:
Where was this tournament?
looper, it was in Ft. Mill, SC. There is a weekly 3d circuit up here, rotates between several clubs in the Charlotte, NC area.

Pete
TwoTracks Ambush 49#@28"

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3077 on: June 06, 2011, 11:31:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
[QB
on a side note, if i ever need craig to shape me another longbow, i'll be sending him my easton digital bow scale to take all necessary draw weight readings.  seriously.        :readit:             :saywhat:   [/QB]
LOL...you ain't the only one!  Maybe we could all pitch in and buy him one...it'll save us all the guessing.  

BTW, no disrespect intended - Craig and company does a dandy job!!

Offline RC

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3078 on: June 06, 2011, 11:46:00 AM »
Just order 3-4 pounds less...RC

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Re: HH bug got me ... Part One!
« Reply #3079 on: June 06, 2011, 11:47:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Swamp Yankee:
While I agree the most forgiving type if grip would be with the pressure all at the base of the thumb, I wonder how many longbows are actually tillered to be shot that way.
That was one of my questions...and it seems that the hills as they are built need the heel down to move the pressure point to the point of balance....if indeed balance is needed.  That could explain why I had trouble with the hand shock years ago that turned me off to the hills.

This thread is full of miles of good stuff!!

Rob: From the pic of your grip, it seems your point of pressure is much higher, even to the mild locator...it that true or do you think it is more towards the center of the grip?

anybody/everybody chime in here if you can...I'd like to see this thing boiled down a bit so we can all understand what is really going on.

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