HH bug got me ... Part One!

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

Originally posted by pavan:
I have been thinking about getting a 70" Hill blank and taking a run to see if I could get it to function at my 26.5" draw.  I would maybe need to reverse trap a very whip ended bow, tempting.

i would think 70" is overkill for a draw length under 27"?  66" sounds mo' bettah to me ... ? [/b]

Is there any ROT on how to match a certain draw length to bow length.  I have read this lately in various posts....I have a 29" draw...does that mean I cannot enjoy a 66" hill bow?

[SpankyNeal]

Alot depends on which bowyers Hill bow you are shooting as they are very different! I would try one first to see how it feels, but I think you would be happier overall with a 67-68". We're all different as well so it might work just fine for you.

[Rob DiStefano]

for a hill longbow, and my 29" draw, anything less than 68" is an issue for me.  ask me why i have a 66" longbow on the classifieds now ....  

yeah, i'm curious to see how nate can make less than 68" fit a 29" draw.  i know rik hinton's sunset hill is 66" and his draw length is the same as mine, 29".  i hope nate can educate me in that way, too.

[Nate Steen .]

To follow up with Spanky's thread....

grip depth and grip length factor into limb tiller and repeatable hand position/bowhand 'heeling'.  To keep the handle length as short as possible, you need to know the grip length. You need to also to be able to make the working limbs as long as possible while keeping the limb arc correct. Factors like this are what make a truly custom bow...not just what kind of wood and glass color you want.  Most bowyers work off a standard riser length for a particular bow length.  They use standard grip sizes, built for the 'standard' shooter.  However, we all know that all of us are different.  No wonder that guys will shoot brand A well and brand B they can't hit the barn door with. In shooting both bows, it happened to work out that brand A happened to be sized and tillered for their unique characteristics, not that brand B was a bad bow.  The 'standard' 68" longbow with a 16"+- handle has been around so long because it fits most people generically and most bowyers that build for a living must make bows to fit the masses or they go broke. But are we all the same? No.  The sum of all the small things in a bow will add up to make a very custom bow that is built to fit that one person.  To do this you must in a sense throw out the book on standardization.  A bow that is built like the old self bows, tweaking and fitting to the shooter becomes a bow that doesn't get left on the bowrack very much because it's always in use. I try to take the old Hill bowmaking principles and use these to fit the bow to the particular individual's needs.  Why did Hill's longbows work for him? They fit him and his needs.  Schulz was taught personally by Hill yet didn't shoot the same length bows as Hill.  He's about 7" shorter with shorter arms, so his bows were sized to fit him and his needs.  Yet both bowyers built bows based on the same design principles. Photos of them both shooting reveal that each's bows had same limb bend, proportionate handles, etc.  That's customization.  That's what I'm talking about.

[SpankyNeal]

What he said!  

[Nate Steen .]

Rob,

 a guy with small hands, shooting a tab, needs a smaller handle, and grips a smaller area of bowstring, no matter what length his draw is...a guy like me with big hands, using a double layer leather glove will need a larger handle and grip a larger area of string, again no matter what his draw is.  Rik has small hands, and shoots barefingered....both very important factors in sizing his bow...however he did want a takedown sleeve, so it's non adjusting size had to be taken into account.  But then again Rik doesn't really draw 29" when he shoots...he creeps forward as he settles into the shot and actually shoots about 27".  He uses 29" bop arrows so he doesn't feel the head hit his finger as he overdraws to get back tension....

I'm starting to reveal secrets that only my customers know about...stuff I've learned the hard way....

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
for a hill longbow, and my 29" draw, anything less than 68" is an issue for me.  ask me why i have a 66" longbow on the classifieds now ....    

yeah, i'm curious to see how nate can make less than 68" fit a 29" draw.  i know rik hinton's sunset hill is 66" and his draw length is the same as mine, 29".  i hope nate can educate me in that way, too.

Rob, please clarify "anything less than 68" is an issue for me"

Is it in your accuracy or overall feeling...many here have alluded to this "issue" in one way or another but it is still too vague for me..  I also think understanding the issue will lead me to make a better decision.

[highcountry]

We went down to the BIG city last weekend.  I stopped by my "crack house". The shop owner has a policy, you can't shoot a bow without purchase prior.  My policy is just the other side of the coin. Test drive prior to purchase.  I would of most likely bought a HH if I could of shot them 1st.  He had a Badger I really liked the looks of. Have you guys ever had a archery shop with the same policy? Buy before you can shoot it?

[Rob DiStefano]

hey nate, am i on your list yet?

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Macatawa:
 

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
for a hill longbow, and my 29" draw, anything less than 68" is an issue for me.  ask me why i have a 66" longbow on the classifieds now ....      

yeah, i'm curious to see how nate can make less than 68" fit a 29" draw.  i know rik hinton's sunset hill is 66" and his draw length is the same as mine, 29".  i hope nate can educate me in that way, too.

Rob, please clarify "anything less than 68" is an issue for me"

Is it in your accuracy or overall feeling...many here have alluded to this "issue" in one way or another but it is still too vague for me..  I also think understanding the issue will lead me to make a better decision. [/b]

for me, with too short a bow, there are issues of stack, loss of smoothness, instability, and a missing 'feel' on release.  with some longbows, even 68" will be close but no cigar.  

all this isn't rocket science, it's closer to human evolution.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by highcountry:
We went down to the BIG city last weekend.  I stopped by my "crack house". The shop owner has a policy, you can't shoot a bow without purchase prior.  My policy is just the other side of the coin. Test drive prior to purchase.  I would of most likely bought a HH if I could of shot them 1st.  He had a Badger I really liked the looks of. Have you guys ever had a archery shop with the same policy? Buy before you can shoot it?

without a doubt, a vendor to avoid like the plague.

[Nate Steen .]

Now I'm leaving...going home to work in the  bowshop...    

Last night I worked on the computer too much and didn't get any 'real' work done...lol.

This has been a great thread guys, I didn't mean to horn in.  Keep it active and remember that information like this is teaching a multitude of longbow shooters what it is that makes true Hill style longbows really work. Better built Hill style longbows are being made today than ever before, and guys are asking more of the bowyers...

Honestly,  a few years ago had any of you ever asked a bowyer for a string follow longbow? or carmelized bamboo?  Honest questions and true answers will help promote our beloved Hill style longbows in a great way....

[Nate Steen .]

Yes, Rob,  you're on my list,  but now I'm backed up too long again.  I need to shut my mouth.....

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by sunset hill:
Yes, Rob,  you're on my list,  but now I'm backed up too long again.  I need to shut my mouth.....

i'm in no hurry.  you keep talking.  talk is cheap and sometimes good.  

[SpankyNeal]

Boy, I'm sure glad I got my list in before all this started!    

[Canyon]

Nate, I want on the list too. Did ya get my email??

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Macatawa, my experience with a 29" draw and a 66" Hill mirrors Rob's, in that I found that I was a bit hit-and-miss with my accuracy. That's why I sold it to a friend with a shorter draw, who absolutely loves the bow, and am replacing it with a similar bow that is longer.

[longbowben]

Wow i have a 64" wesley and i draw a true 28 1/2 and it feels fine to me.But i ordered a 66 inch this time just thought i would give a longer bow a try.

Originally posted by Ben Kleinig:
Macatawa, my experience with a 29" draw and a 66" Hill mirrors Rob's, in that I found that I was a bit hit-and-miss with my accuracy. That's why I sold it to a friend with a shorter draw, who absolutely loves the bow, and am replacing it with a similar bow that is longer.

So, you will go with a 68"er?

[Ricker]

Macatawa,
I have a 68" 60#@28 Hill Cheetah that is a straight profiled bow that I'd be glad to send you to try for yourself. I see you're from Michigan so it would be cheap to mail or if you live somewhere near me maybe just personally deliver.
My feeling is if you're a 29" draw 68" is best at a minimum like Ben suggests too.