HH bug got me ... Part One!

[sticksnstones]

Hello Jacques,
I don't know if you saw the original set of pictures or not, but here is a link to   THAT POST  

Gary, when you strung it up,how heavy did it feel? Any guess?
Thom

[Jacquesbonin]

Thom, yes I did. It is still my belief that bow is right with a quater inch tiller. And is shootable. If you need a volunteer, I am your man. I would take great pleasure in checking it out and shooting it.I already know what to expect. I have had so many like this one and they shoot great. Someone like Nate could give you the green light if he could hold to do the inspection. I am basing my feeling on my past experiences and what I see in the pictures. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Later,Jacques

[Sant-Ravenhill]

I too know Craig at HHA, and a better guy you will never meet. He let me sit on his couch for several hours one time reading a book he had, when I stopped by to pick up some supplies.

He makes a very fine bow and comparing his bows to a huge company like Bear Archery, that puts out hundreds, even thousands of bows a month, does him and his bows a disservice.

[Flingblade]

Thanks all for the info.!  I think the tiller was off by more than 1/4 inch but I need to restring and measure for sure.  
Thom, It felt like it was around 60 lbs to me.  Next time I go to GVSG in Allendale I'll take it along and test it on their scale.  
Not sure I can make GLLI but will if I can.  Everything is up in the air with jobs right now.
Gary

Originally posted by khardrunner:
Im not sure there are really two camps at all. Nate already commented that he and craig are good friends. They respect eachothers work. I have shot craigs bows and I currently own a schulz. I notice some differences but they are minimal. I think everyone agrees all of the bowyers mentioned are great. At this point its just a matter of taste. Some feel sunset hills are better, others hha, some millers, johnson, shulz, or even specific bows from one or the other. Theres no problem with having a preference.

I can see how some comments could be seen as incendiary, but not to the point of dividing the hill gang

This is how I feel as well.  I have grown to understand and love the Hill bows over the past year....right here on this thread.

I was here at the beginning and have watched as the tradition unfolded, and things were discussed and opinions were shared...much like today.

I bought a nice SF Half Breed from Craig and devoured it for over a year..a blessing for sure!

Also in my little pile is a David Miller Old Tom and a Sunset Hill.  

There are differences - not that it matters to the masses but some of us like play in the nuances - at least I do - it is my nature and privilege.  I love the foundation of traditional archery and want to touch its roots therefore I can appreciate everything that is discussed here...nobody is wrong and we are all blessed indeed!

It is ALL Good my brothers (you too Killie)    

[Nate Steen .]

Jacques,  great post and I would like to offer an angled view....

Hill didn't set any more records after he switched to glass, except for adding to his impressive kill list.  Could it be that he didn't feel the need or desire to prove himself anymore, like he did as a younger man?  Glass started showing up in the 50's, by that time Hill was in his 50's too....most guys at that age are willing to pass the torch to the younger set, and records are made to be broken by younger men.  But Hill set the bar so high, he could be comfortable in his old age.

I might be way off here, but I believe that one of the reasons why Hill switched to glass besides the durability aspect was that as he got older, he could shoot less bow weight and keep the same arrow trajectory that was imprinted in his mind from all those years of shooting.  The fiberglass basically became an aid to keep his shooting at the level he was used to....

[swampthing]

Shoot the bow you got, long enough, and you will become married to it. Know it's needs, wants, desires, and what makes it sing. Skip out with a different girl to test the waters, try new techniques, and learn what makes her sing, will dilute what you have learned to do with your main squeeze.  You pluck the string on your main squeeze and he'll/she'll almost anticipate you and forgive your sorry excuse for a man/woman butt and fix it before you get off..... the string. Twist up the handles on the "other one" and watch it walk away from you, all the while you wish you had your main one to give it too you like you like it.... straight and narrow.

[Jacquesbonin]

Nate, after reading your post. I believe you are mostly spot on with that observation, however I would state he had no choice as the glass bow was also the wave of the future and he knew it. There is no dout that glass is responsible for archery in it's many forms being alive and offered today. I think there is a bow out there that matches an individuals personality. such as the compound bow for the gadgeteer, the bamboo bow for the purist, the recurve guy that wants less draw weight and more artistry attached his equipment. I on the other hand wouldn't give a second thought to shooting something that looked just awful and most people would be embarrassed at shooting some of the bows I have toted around. I shot those ugly things incredibly well and the deer and such didn't care how ugly my equipment was! After all, we must remember it is a tool to get a job done! Thanks, for provoking thought.Later,Jacques

[Nate Steen .]

Good points Jacques, and the bows I've seen of Hills were actually quite plain, some were slightly abused looking because of years of use, and if his name wasn't on them, you couldn't get 25.00 for them at a yard sale....

no one ever thinks about how pretty the instrument is after they've heard a master musician play....all we can think about is how sweet the sound is....

[Overspined]

Let's get away from being sensitive or offended! There are how many car manufacturers?  They all get you where you want to go.  I won't argue that your car is better than mine because it probably IS!  There are all prices and quality, accessories, etc. I think it's okay to compare the different builds, and to express opinions here, we are all adults. I own Hill, Northern Mist, Dave Johnson, a friends "garage" build, Miller, and hope for others over time.  I love the diversity. They are all different, and if i do my job, I shoot them all about equally well. I can feel differences, but it's really no big deal.  I have been speaking with Pavan via PM, and he has said how much he likes to take a blank and make it the way he likes...so cool. Nobody called a bow or bowyer lacking in skill here, and getting a bow from Howard Hill Archery in less than 4 weeks vs 13 months is okay in my book, and they all shoot the heck out of an arrow! Compare for yourself, there's not a ton of difference overall, subtle differences that make it so much fun to try, and have to order another bow...

As Chuck (two tracks) said, I have it bad, and need to stay off the classifieds because I am a fan of the diversity in the builds, and would love to be able to own a few more.  If these guys hadn't posted the differences in builds I never would have had this crazy desire to finish a blank myself and see what I could come up with.  Keep the discussions going!

[Basil_K]

I'll solve this problem.

Everyone send me all their hill bows. That way no one can compare them anymore because I'll have them all....


So you can send those bows to ....


In my dreams right?? Lol

[C.Cannon]

Originally posted by sunset hill:
Jacques,  great post and I would like to offer an angled view....

Hill didn't set any more records after he switched to glass, except for adding to his impressive kill list.  Could it be that he didn't feel the need or desire to prove himself anymore, like he did as a younger man?  Glass started showing up in the 50's, by that time Hill was in his 50's too....most guys at that age are willing to pass the torch to the younger set, and records are made to be broken by younger men.  But Hill set the bar so high, he could be comfortable in his old age.

I might be way off here, but I believe that one of the reasons why Hill switched to glass besides the durability aspect was that as he got older, he could shoot less bow weight and keep the same arrow trajectory that was imprinted in his mind from all those years of shooting.  The fiberglass basically became an aid to keep his shooting at the level he was used to....

Hill was at the height of his movie/short film carrier in the mid 40's and 50's and made several of his safaris back then (Tembo was filmed in 1950). He shot his elephants with a 115# glass backed bow so he defiantly didn't do it to lessen the load. He probably gave most new things that came along a try and either added them to his bow specifications if he liked them or shook them off if they didn't feel right to him.  

People forget Hill was an innovator and had a love for adventure. He probably decided that he would rather hang out with movie stars and kill elephants than beat the same guys on the range every weekend (why wouldn't he    )

[john gilbert]

some say a bow with more lams is smoother drawing. Why would that be the case? I understand some folks are apprehensive about the extra glue. Could someone go into the pros and cons of lets say five lams vs three. Sorry if this has been covered before. Thanks in advance, John

[Overspined]

I have had that question myself, John.  

I don't think it's the lam # per say, but maybe something you can do with them. I have had cheetahs, Wesley sp's, halfbreed, and reman longbows. In my opinion the Wesley's do feel better on the draw and shot, every time.  I don't have one right now but that's my opinion. I know that's HHA's flagship bow, and I THINK again, back to design, that it's tapered differently.

 Faster, I am not sure, but a very good shooter.  I have a halfbreed T/D that I wish I made a Wesley.  I'm not unhappy with it, but just sold an identical bow, Wesley, in a 1 piece that I think shot differently, and better for me.

Frank Eickholtz told me "One day Howard came to my shop to check out my new line of bows, my static recurves. He asked,'you got any arrows that shoot out of this thing, I have never been able to hit the broadside of a barn with a recurve.'  I have never seen such accuracy in my life. He destroyed the first set of arrows and wanted more. He just let the bow shoot itself."  
I think Hill was curious about all innovations.

[john gilbert]

Overspined, funny you talk about the Wesley. I have one. For me, it is the best bow I have ever owned. I have a Redman, that is a close second, that I actually use for hunting, because it is lighter in wieght. But that Wesley is the best bow I have ever had, in longbows anyhow. It is smooth, and hits where I look. Dunno, thats why this stuff is so addicting. I would love to give one of Sunset Hills bow a try. I hear they meow.

[Kelly]

Howard said the following to the Schulz boys(as he called) back in the late 1940's when under his tutiledge, Boys you better decide right here and now whether you want to be a target shooter or a hunter because the style needed to excell in either is vastly different and they don't mix well or something very similar(don't have the exact quote in from of me.

So by this time(late 40's) Howard had already quit shooting for score and was concetrating on hunting along with trick shooting/movie stunt work. Along this time frame is where his string follow all bamboo bows were developed I presume.

Also read somewhere that "Granma" which was his favorite longbow for hunting was backed with the new fangled glass for the durability purpose of taking it on safari. Guess maybe he felt a need to make sure his bows lasted on this long safari.

[Overspined]

Howard died about the time I was born. When I was 15, my  uncle wanted to shoot archery with me and bought the top of line wheelie bow to hunt with me, and my wheelie bow.  I remember he shot one practice session with that bow, and within a week I was in his car and we ended up at Great Norther Bow Co.  

I didn't know really what was going on, and after a 15 second instruction, I was shooting a Bushbow at a bale under the supervision of Jerry Brumm.  I was asked of I liked it, and I nodded.  He made a lot of coin at the time and bought it for me.  That was the best material gift I ever received.

Next few months found my uncle, aunt, myself, father, mother, and little bro all shooting our longbows, all the time...together. It was a great time shooting Judos in a friendly competition. Until he shot the longbow, my father wouldn't touch a bow. Too complicated and too many stories from the wheelie guys and issues they had.

How did we learn to shoot? Hitten 'em like Howard Hill VHS.  we studied Schultz intensely.  I don't know how many times we watched that video and discussed it. I haven't seen it in 22 years and could probably quote it.

My first season, a whitetail buck the second morning out, on the ground. 2nd season, a BIG buck from the ground. I had NEVER shot a deer before, with any weapon.  My aunt shot a doe that first year too. None of the others ever shot a deer.  I am still at it, but my dad mostly elk hunts (they are big and loud and clumsy compared to deer).

Fast forward. My Dad and I still shoot and hunt.  I am kind of hard core.  Our almost yearly trip to CO for elk these past years with sticks has been amazing. I continue to do well with deer.

The Hill method of shooting, or my closest physically possible version of it, has been a very good way to shoot.

If I had one thing I could change, it would have been to shoot a lighter draw weight bow when I learned. I developed an anchor problem that never went away until I intensely worked on it.  When I'm fatigued it comes back.  I maintain to always start learning with a bow that's easy as pie to shoot.

Without Schultz's introduction to Hill, and of course his many other books and videos, I don't know where I would have learned to shoot.  I didn't know one other friend that shot a Stickbow.

Things I remember from 1991 and relevant here, Ron LaClaire at GLLI, which seemed like a huge event, and the nice fellas at Great Northern Bow Co.

[Ben Maher]

cool story man !

[john gilbert]

X2 what Ben says. You in Mich Overspined? We could do some stumpin. I love killin those things.