HH bug got me ... Part One!

[SportHunter]

What gpi do you experienced Hill bow users prefer? I'm getting ready to set up some aluminum hunting arrows for my 56# @ 28 northern mist classic drawing 27". From the scattered info I've read it ranges from 9-12 gpi and possibly 10 gpi preferred?

[Ben Maher]

"stumpin " as my far off mate John stated is the best way I can spend an afternoon ... I often miss out on hunting oppurtunities because I am having way to much fun stumping !

[john gilbert]

Ha, that is so true Mr. Ben. I have been known to get bored deer hunting, and just started walkin around shootin stuff.

Nothin better on a warm, calm, sunny October day, to stump the mid afternoon away, while thinking of the evening hunt. I have taken to putting several piles of cut grass around the property, so I can still stump, when the ground is froze like a brick. I shall take pics:)

[Ben Maher]

Originally posted by SportHunter:
What gpi do you experienced Hill bow users prefer? I'm getting ready to set up some aluminum hunting arrows for my 56# @ 28 northern mist classic drawing 27". From the scattered info I've read it ranges from 9-12 gpi and possibly 10 gpi preferred?

I realy like between 9-10 " ... its IMHO  a great middle ground between speed and penetration . If I go further north here in Oz I might bump the weight up a bit as the critters get bigger and thicker skinned but 10gns pp is really comfortable for me .
I shoot very similiar specs and a similiar draw weight and find 2016's with 200gns up front is my preferred combo and I have hunted pretty much with that same set up for the last three years .
160 Ace b'heads atop a 42gn adaptor ...

killed a bunch of critters with it too ....

[Nate Steen .]

9 gpi forme....real good penetration and good arrow trajectory.

[Owlmagnet]

Back on page 654, Nate asked for a talley on how many Hillstyle bows have been purchased or "dusted off" as a result of this thread. Well, I spoke to Craig, today, and ordered one trying to employ as much as I could about what I think I have learned during these recent, spirited discussions regarding the "nuances" of Hillstyle bow design.

I currently own, shoot, and enjoy two Wesley Specials, but I went in a little different direction on this one. Craig could not have been more encouraging about my attempt to "build" the bow I wanted to try.

I ordered a 3-lam Tembo. 66" (for my 26" draw), string follow, carmelized bamboo limbs. A 12" riser of carmelized laminated bamboo, (I wanted zero contrast), that lays outside the limb laminations. 45#@26", (a good weight for me).

I have actually been carving straight grip, mock risers, trying to figure out the most repeatable grip for me. Turns out, I am having the best luck with an "old school" deep, skinny, wedge grip. In my case, 1" wide and 2 and 3/8" deep. I told him not to bother wrapping it--I am prepared to take a wood rasp to it, if necessary, to get the feel I want. (I prefer a linen cord wrap with a few coats of urethane spar varnish on it, anyway.) I also told him not to bother with an arrow rest--I have been shooting off wood, lately, and enjoying it.

I told him to cut the shelf as close to center as he dared. (I have no plans to compete with it.) No tip overlays, just the wedge. (I make my own 15 strand, 3-bundle, Dacron b-50 strings and believe they are quiet and easy on the bow. No silencers.) I told him the skinnier and deeper the limbs, the better. He said he'd get right on it....

I have 27" BOP ash arrows with 160 grain Hill broadheads, about 550 grains, that ought to fly pretty well out of it. They're a little heavy, I know, but I keep my shots below 25 yards when hunting and will trade speed for penetration, any day, especially with a lighter bow.

So, how did I do? I've read every post on this thread and I really appreciate all the expertise that has been shared freely, throughout. I have tried to make a good faith attempt incorporate a lot of terrific information about things I never gave enough thought to. If it becomes my "go to" Hill, I'll be carrying it on the Hog Hunt down in Georgia, next February.

Thanks Nate....

[Nate Steen .]

Ahhhh....that should be a sweet bow mr.owl......when you get Craig out of the normal/usual he delivers his best stuff I believe.  As usual we probably won't wait long for pics.

[Bud B.]

As for this thread getting more folks into the Hill Style of bow, I have bought two since this thread started. I hate to see that the last few pages of the thread have taken a sad turn, in my humble opinion.

I'm proud to own a Howard Hill Archery Big Five and a Dave Johnson custom made for me. I'd order one from each again if the need ever arose. The HH bug will likely have me buying a few more even though I really don't need any more bows. These two shoot way better than my abilities.


Thank you Craig and Dave for your classy bows. You both have a loyal follower in me.

Claymore, hope you can make the Sissipahaw shoot in Burlington Aug 18. I'd like to shake your hand.

[2treks]

HHA has been around for a longtime,that didn't happen by accident. They are a sponsor here and that is something Tradgang and its members respect.  
Lets get this back to straight end bows and our enjoyment of them,

Chuck

[Rossco7002]

Rob, that sounds like a really cool bow design! Please Post up some pictures when it arrives.

[Killdeer]

Thanks, Chuck.
I am one who has had my interest in Hillbows sparked by this thread. This has, in turn, gotten me more interested in the peripheral aspects of arrow building and string making. I think another quiver may come into being as well. I am also beginning to think that these bows are pretty, and can even tell some of them apart.      

Playing with my new Owl is one of my most enjoyable activities these days. I hope that this thread remains enjoyable as well.
Killdeer

[Kelly]

Guys, I was there in the very beginning of "Sunset Hill". Nate and I are good friends-during that time we lived about 10 miles apart and I was a pest(some might say) at his work place all the time. Back in the early 2000's when fledgling Sunset Hill started selling bows(suppose one could say I helped put them on the map by advertising Nate's bow on my website Arrows by Kelly) there was only Nate and David Miller that were making and selling string follow Hill style bows. A string follow bow is all Nate makes and has made.

Now one can find a dozen bowyers, maybe more that are offering string follow bows(not all are Hill style)some of them even offer caramelized limbs because Nate made them that way from the beginning. That said, it doesn't mean that all these bows will shoot and feel the same just because of appearance.

The same can be said of recurves-there are maybe 6 bowyers who make bows that look just like the Brackenbury, several that look like Black Widows, dozens that are ILF and so on. Doesn't mean that they all will shoot and feel the same because of similar lines.

Copying a particular popular design has been going on for centuries and will continue-still doesn't mean they all will shoot and feel the same. There is a lot more to it than just laying up some lams and glass and sticking a block of wood on it.

Anyone who knows the history of Howard Hill and his meticulous bow making style knows there is reasons why things are done a certain way one at a time over decades. Howard was constantly experimenting but when he found the formula that shot best he never waivered from it for the sake of making more or just a pretty package. He copied no one-sure in the beginning he did but what we call here as the "Hill Style" is a copy of no one.

All Sunset Hill is trying to do is keep the "true" Howard Hill string follow bows alive and well. Same as with John Schulz did and David Miller does today. Yes, because of the popularity and shooting characteristics of Howard's string follow longbow there are many other bowyers making/copying "Hill Style" longbows including string follow design. Most have gotten in to business recently because of the popularity of Sunset Hill, Howard Hill Archery and David Miller Longbows.

Howard was meticulous and spent decades and untold numbers of bows before arriving at the epitome of Hill Style-a string follow longbow with bamboo lams, deep core, narrow limbs that bent the full length, tiny tips, very short handle, tillered and constructed like no other bow. John Schulz, David Miller and Sunset Hill are still trying to keep this true "Hill Style" string follow longbow alive today.

Over the years if you guys will listen and have listened to things that were said-technical things that Nate has said-they are glimpses inside to the construction of Howard's string follow longbow that have taken decades of study, trials and tribulations to learn Howard's techniques. He has let some of the kittens out of the bag but I dare say there is still a whole passel of cats in it. I know of one particular technique that Nate uses when building his bows that no other commercial bowyer today, except one uses. And there still are a lot more cats in the bag.

[Charlie Lamb]

OK boys!! I've edited out a couple of inflammatory posts for the sake of harmony. It is my opinion that they were generated by a misunderstanding of intent and content of earlier posts.

Let's please keep this thread on track. It's come too far to break down like this and I like to think we Hill devotees are better than that.

As a member and moderator I'd hate to see this thread end nor would I want to be the one who ends it.

Carry on brothers and sisters.
   

[Nate Steen .]

I apologize for any toes I've stepped on in recent days.  I have said nothing that I haven't quietly alluded to in many years on TG.  I have upmost respect for the people here and for TG itself.

Debate is healthy, as one sword sharpens another....  Debate means looking at both sides.  I have tried to present another view of Hillstyle equipment, longbows, etc over the years, especially in this famous thread.  Over the years I have got repeated pm's and emails from both sides, those cheering and those arguing.  That's the nature of discussion forums.  I like to see it myself.  

 

I know for a fact that I have helped increase knowledge, business, and customer satisfaction of many Hill style bowyers who have never posted on this site and who may or may not be sponsors.  Techniques in bowmaking that I have shared with readers have become standard offerings by many bowmakers due to customer demand. (string follow, carmelized bamboo, antiqued glass, riser fades under clear glass, short handles, proper tiller and timing, etc.) I am ok with this as I never posted as a way to bring income to myself.  I only posted to inform, to enlighten, to encourage.  I am secure in my statement of assembly line bows.  Look for yourself at the offerings by top end bowyers....all bows are made to the same specs, same mould, and all feel mostly the same when shot.  This is not a deragatory statement.  Bear, Black Widow, and almost every other high end bowyer uses an assembly line production method and no one, no one says it's bad.  I didn't say so either. Those are not bad bows, far from it.  I did say however, that if you can get a bowyer to break from his normal routine, listen to your needs and wants, they will make a bow to fit you.  And honestly, isn't that what most of us are paying hard earned money for?  That last statement is not pointed at any one bowyer personally, but as a general rule for most bowyers today. It's the way it is.  Sorry if that offends.

I wish to all that you have many wonderful times shooting your Hillstyle longbows and feathered shafts at the mark.  I sincerely hope this thread flourishes and that someday I will meet some of you whom I have had many enlightening conversations with as a result of this thread.

all the best,
Nate

[Jacquesbonin]

Gang, just weighing in on arrows and mass weight. My rule of thumb for most shooters is 20grains for each inch of draw. I also recommend twice the the draw length to be the proper poudage an archer should shoot better, if they started with a light bow and got the shooting form down, then moved up by a few pounds till the reached the afore mentioned, twice the draw length in poundage and 20 per inch of draw. Two things occur here, one the bow and archer perform incredibly well together, flat cast and easy on the shooting form. With no possibilities of injuries, an archer following this regimen can shoot all day without tiring with very few mistakes. the problem with shooting heavier draw weights, the equipment has to become heavier, limbs become heavier, and the arrows become heavier. Now the arrow is the piece of the equation that as it becomes stiffer the mass weight goes out of sink. There is a point of diminishing returns. The bow and arrow combination go hand in hand till 65#s is reached then the ratios of spine and mass change along with the extra mass in the bow limbs. The only reason to shoot heavy bows beyond 65#s is the total arrow weight, such as for big game, where a heavy arrow is desired to get the job done on the heavy muscle mass and bone structure, period. The flat shooting with heavy bows and arrows is limited, where 65# and under continue to shoot flat at greater distances by comparison. The tendency to be overbowed is so prevelent, the injuries and eventual dropping out a sport that so many enjoy. I have taught so many archers using this formula after starting them light that they continue to use the formula today after 10 or even twenty years of shooting. The Hill longbow actually becomes a way of life in archery. I would like to see everyone successful at archery. I love to see a great shot made reguardless of who made the shot! So please be careful and don't overbow to start with. Note: that ratio applies to target arrows, when hunting just add 10 pounds heavier in spine and I jump 60-75 grains heavier than a target arrow. The dynamics of a broadheaded arrow changes from the shorter target arrow simply because of added length. These two arrows fly the same and impact the target the same, takes no time to adjust to the broadheaded arrow. Remember you are trying to shoot your best, give yourself a chance, shoot a bow weight that is comfortable. I shoot heavy draw weight 65-72#s at my short draw of 25.5, for two reasons that is a weight I have become comftable with and my eye and the arrow has been married for so long. I don't want to loose that flat arrow flight! Take this for what it worth and enjoy yourself and the flight of the arrow. Later,Jacques

[tg2nd]

@ Nate      

[Dodger]

Originally posted by sunset hill:
I would like to see a tally of how many shooters have switched to Hillstyle longbows due to this thread.

I was always drawn to longbows and this thread was the catalyst.

I currently shoot a Bama Hunter which isn't considered a true Hill but that is neither here nor there because it's the Hill system of shooting that really interests me. I still haven't figured out the aiming bit and shoot instinctive instead. Then again, I rarely get the opportunity to shoot beyond 15 yards.

Which reminds me....any progress on the instructional video? It would help me immeasureably.

BTW, for all you Bama Bow fans, Nate (Steele) is going to start work on a more Hillesque longbow prototype pretty soon.

[toddster]

Jacquesbonin- thanks that is great information!  I was practicing yesterday and something unique happen.  From time to time I think we all have the days, where we just cann't miss and everything just clicks.  Well I was standing about 18 yards shooting at my blank butt and was clicking.  I walked up to the butt and cut 3 feathers off arrows, of course at first excited, but then grunted over having to make more (love of labor, lol).  Anyway,  I walked back and had a few left.  I nocked a string and looked up and the neighbor cat had chased a field mouse down the drive.  Don't know why, but I just came up swung and plow, nailed the little mouse, and the cat ran by.  I have shot some moving targets, especially at Mr. Wesley school, but this was just all pure instinct.  I wish wife was home to take a pic to share. I have done some lucky shots in the past, but this was just awesome and hit's home what the Hill style can really accomplish.  thanks for letting me ramble and share.

[Steve Clandinin]

Toddster,I know what you mean,I just came in from Shooting my Dwyer Original and Mr. Westley,Geez I felt good ,everything blosomed,ruined two arrows and had a smile on my face like the Cheshire Cat,it doesn't get much better at my age,after my 4 spine surgerys,with knowledge from this thread and gut determination,the 60# Westley seams like my long lost buddy.So much thanks to everyone.

[Killdeer]

What, you missed the cat?