HH bug got me ... Part One!

[swampthing]

69" Kramer made "Big 5" 48#@28. 1.3" of backset!!  

 Put a 62# tapered cedar w/125g point. Cut 29.5"!!!! {Went back to my longer draw days,}  for the day I shot that thing wide open, no slouching, and anchor'd it on the side of my face.      
Went to the long range, the woods, and flung that arrow out to 60yds, 40yds, 38yds, and everywhere in between. Those arrows stuck in the trees no less then with heavier bows. I put a 657g arrow through the chony     :confused:    159-160.5 @29.5"
Maybe it was the skinny string, ha ha, maybe it is the 69" of length, I know it is not the backset, can't be the palm swells, those pencil tips, that narrow, narrow shelf where the 11/32" almost hangs over the edge. Gotta be the weight, and the length. 48# on 69" limbs comes back like diarrhea after visiting Mexico.  
   Lot cheaper on arrows as well, 165fps doesn't seem to explode a shaft on bad hits like 185 does. 530g @165fps, real numbers here, I know I would not want my rib hit by one of those.

[Basil_K]

Wow that's beautiful.

[Ron LaClair]

Brazos, I agree with Charlies assessment of your problem. Keeping good form is a constant battle. We all have a tendency at times to let good form slip from the forefront of our shooting. Without good consistent form shooting accuracy suffers. I was watching the Olympic archers on TV the other day and the commentator mentioned the importance of consistent form and concentration of the archers.

When I was shooting competition Field and Target archery all through the 60's I worked on my form every single day. A reminder written on the upper limb of my bow said, "PUSH, PULL, AIM,AIM,AIM"

One of the biggest problems that can plague an archer is called "peeking" You can be doing it without realizing it. Basically, it's an urge to watch the arrow in flight...taking your eyes off the intended spot and lifting your head to see the arrow as it leaves the bow. Sometimes the head is lifted BEFORE the release and that can pull everything out of line and cause a bad shot.

Good form is when hand pressure on the bow is consistent, back tension is felt,eyes are focused on the spot you want to hit, the string slips from your fingers, the hand comes back along the side of your face or stays against your face depending on your shooting style. The bow spins in your hand if you use a loose grip, your head remains stationary and eyes REMAIN on the spot until the arrow reaches the target. If we all could do this consistently every time we would never miss...and shooting a bow would become boring...     ..  

[swampthing]

Just found back tension! only took 6-yrs shooting! 52#@29.5" please Santa.

[Jacquesbonin]

Back tension is the most important part of shooting form. I practice the shooting form in so many different positions at home, such as bending at the waist holding the bow horizontal, kneeling shooting backwards, any position I can get myself in. The whole time trying to have good and consistant form. Part of my shooting regimen is one arrow too light and one arrow correct and one arrow too heavy, at 25 yards concentrate and make all three arrows joined in the target. When you can acccomplish this the your form and execution is spot on! Try you will find it difficult at first then things start to come closer together, then your shooting. Next time out on a 3D course you will see the big dividends. Enjoy! Later,Jacques

[Overspined]

Good posts on form and concentration.  I agree with Charlie too that, although it's tough, hang it up for a few days to a week, and recover.  I struggle with sports injuries and have to do this often.  I still get beat up in men's leagues so sometimes fatigue and age just mean a little more rest. It does wonders for shooting form and concentration.

My dad was shooting sporadically this weekend, he doesn't shoot for about 5 months in a row every year.  One quick reminder on holding the bow arm up and follow through and he was smiling again, with good shooting.  The little things...

I find that 20 yds or less and I'm good to go. 25 yds usually okay, over 25 and I start to decline. I've noticed that the arc of heavier arrows and lighter bow weights make it harder to shoot instinctively at longer ranges.  Lighter arrows help, and if I would use some sort of aiming gap technique it helps as well. I think again, though, that for deer hunting I rarely shoot more than 15 yds, so I don't worry about it anymore. I shoot longer ranges only for fun and form, but I don't stress about it. Most guys are keeping the shots pretty short, with ocassional longer ones. Of deer I've ever shot at or killed at over 20 yds with a stickbow, Maybe 1 in 20 yrs.  I've killed a bunch.  It's a short range sport for most of us.

These days we hold a higher standard of ethics and clean kills. Some stories of old included a lot of "target saturation" at long range.  They are a great read, but they were making up "the rules" as they went. Pope's book was a perfect example when shooting at lions, Hill at many different species, etc. Ocassionally they scored...

[Ron LaClair]

It's hard to believe that this video clip was 32 years ago...it seems just like yesterday..   :eek:  I was shooting a 70# 70" Hill bow. The target was a steel bionic bear, the stake in front of me was 15yds so I was shooting from about 20yd's  

 http://www.tradgang.com/videos/ronlaclair/ronl-2.wmv

[Charlie Lamb]

Very nice Ron!
   

[SportHunter]

Great video Ron!

[Jacquesbonin]

Ron, great shooting! Now on to differences in grips. Let us refer to locator or pistol grip as bow no.1 and the straight no nonsense grip as bow no2. A simple matter of physics, when you introduce curves, angles or combination of both you are inherently introducing torque and dividing the forces aplied to the handle. As it is almost imposible to duplicate the same torque applied each time the same, the difference can be seen in the impact of the arrow in the target. It may show up as arrow in target nock end high or low or right or left side of arrow exposed from the shooting position. You are making subtle influences on the energy to propell the arrow forward, this also effect the arrow flight, not to mention, the shooter can apply a little more pressure on the pivot area of handle causing the arrow to dive right for a right handed archer and left for a sowpaw.
Bow no.2 is a straight grip, the  shape is very plain, less area to apply torque, note you can torque any grip. However the straight grip minimises torgque and it's influences on arrow flight and impact. Bare in mind shooting a Hill style longbow you should shoot committed to the shot, full draw and give the intended target all you and the bow has to offer! The distinct advantage of the straight grip it inherently directs the energy to the arrow allowing all the energy to pass most efficiently into the arrow adding to performance. Not hindering performance as can happen with the pistol or locator grips. Most differences are subtle and unless truly paying attention the differences most archers wouldn't notice. I on the other hand will notice differences in all aspects afore mention, because of my short draw of 25.5 inches. It does show up much more noticeable for me, and I am aware and looking to see those differences. By paying such close attention to the little details, it has allowed me to shoot arrows that by many including John Schults as to heavy for my bow and arrow combination. So I get speeds between 180-195fps with bow of 62 to 72#s and arrows between 475to 565grains. It matters a great deal to me as I have become accustom to flat arrow flight and the ability to hit close to what most consider to far to shoot. I think if there was a scientific test that could be done regarding the differences, it would show the tighter and more consistant groups a little more speed, all the qualities that one should look for in a great Hill style longbow. Any questions or comments are greatly welcomed. Later,Jacques

[swampthing]

Any words of wisdom for us younger shooters as far as bow weight. We've got some good string materials now that boost speed about 3-7 fps or so over dacron. For people shooting deer, turkey, and black bear, is 70# worth it for the clean release, flatter trajectory, increased penetration etc. etc.  or is 55# @27-29" with fast flight and 500g shafts still more than enough??

[Rossco7002]

Good question from swampthing there. I'd like to hear the the input as well.

[Overspined]

I can't shoot heavy bows at all anymore, but did shoot some from time to time, mostly for comparison and fun. There's a huge difference between 64 and 50#, with which I have experienced comparisons... If the heavier bows are able to be handled well, trajectory is enhanced immensely.  This is why Howard shot heavy bows.  Also, he could handle them. If he drew 100#+, shooting 65-75 was like a toy.  Humbling.

I have killed Iowa whitetail with everything from a 36 pound Hill Cheetah (elbow injury) to a 96 pound Big 5 with loaded Microflite 12s.  The deer I shot with the 36 pounder was at the same place I shot a deer with one of the heavy bows. It was an amazingly similar scenario, 8 or 9 feet up 18 yards to the edge of the field, one was a fat doe, the other a similar sized 8 pointer.  I was sitting on my lunch log both times. Both deer ran across to where the woods started stopped looked back and dropped, about 80 yards, ones was with a 140 grain hill on a 5/16" cedar the other a 160 grain Hill on the heavy fiberglass.  With the light bow, the arrow was in the second standing  corn row past the deer. With the heavy rig, the corn was picked and the ground hard and dry and the arrow flew a long long ways into the field. I have had an arrow fly up and well beyond the deer after the hit once with a Zebra, 53 pounds at 26" shooting a 5/16" cedar left wing holding a 125 right wing Grizzly, I took a 40 yard shot at a doe. I saw the arrow go up and to the right and never found it, however the big doe dropped in only 60 yards. For deer, unless hitting high on the ribs from a tree stand or hitting the shoulder, it is not so much about the bow as it is the arrow and the broadhead and how straight it is flying when it hits the deer.

[toddster]

Great video Ron, always loved them.  As far as shooting falling apart at some distance, I feel and experianced as I am sure we all do, a wall.  usually about 20 to 25 they just seem to drift open more. and takes more practice.  you can overcome it and take practice and time.  Remember, "if your form is good, you won't be too far off at 50 yards", Howard HIll.  I found this to be true few years back, when was limiting myself to 20 yard practice, when deer season came in a doe gave me a quick shot when on the ground.  took in and had a great shot.  Later when stepped it off, she was 33 yards from me.  That was when the comment drove home and was my first instinctive shot, and how form prevails.

Jaques- I agree with your on the grip and have noticed it too.  After shooting longbow for while went back to recurve and was all over and didn't feel right.  Wasn't until Mr. WEsley pointed out that gripping the longbow right, as pointed out earlier, all the bones in the hand align up and gives a solid grip and control of the bow.

[MikeM]

Those hunting will Hill bows in the 45-50 pound range what issues/problems happen shooting deer, turkey. hogs and javalina

[tg2nd]

Originally posted by Ron LaClair:
It's hard to believe that this video clip was 32 years ago...it seems just like yesterday..    :eek:   I was shooting a 70# 70" Hill bow. The target was a steel bionic bear, the stake in front of me was 15yds so I was shooting from about 20yd's  

  http://www.tradgang.com/videos/ronlaclair/ronl-2.wmv  

   

[Jacquesbonin]

Weighing in bow weight. Around the world at about the same time, every continent had some form of archery, that was about 50,000 years ago. The most common draw weight was about 30#s. When all the material for bow staves available would they choose 30#s. The answer is simple the arrow material in most cases was reeds from around the bodies of water. They simply used the straightest easiest material to work with. Admittedly some used the addition of poison to accomplish the kill. And with the collective knowledge we have today, we know the rest of the story. I would say that most can handle between
40-55#s in draw weight. Now with the options to purchase any arrow material, fas flight strings and the many different bows, one can make the choices that enhance shooting performance with light weight bows and arrows. The key factor in being able to cleanly kill is shot distance, shot placement and the broadhead! With great attention paid to the broadhead. Single blade' double edge, razor sharp, and fairly narrow around 1-to 1 and 1/16th and approximately 2 and 1/2 in length. I am not a proponent of weight forward arrows. I choose paralell shafts, wood, aluminum, and carbon, I shoot these cut 27" to boh and use 145 grain field tips and Bear razorheads. I use the paralell wood shafts to give me the most weight in that length shaft, I am looking for 535 to 565 for target shooting in wood. If I am shooting aluminum, 2018's come in around 535-540 grains, the 2020(my favorite aluminum) come in at 565grains. If I am playing games I will shoot two carbon shafts,150 Heritage come in at 490 grains with 145 grain heads, the  other carbons come in at 460 grains.
The all have thei differences in flight characteristics, I have killed many animals with all the afore mentioned combinations. However if I had to choose one set up, I would go for the 2020 the heavy weight champion that it is! This shaft combination has punched through bones in and on the way out of large deer dropping them very quickly. But in the case of the light bows, I am going to share some thing with all of you that I don't share to often. When choosing an arrow combination, choose an arrow that when shot at 10 yards impacts the target pefectly straight at chest height, in other words shooting level. The arrow should go perfectly straight into the target, no side shaft showing no nock high and no nock low! Now move back shoot at 20 yards the arrow should impact the target the same with nop deviation, move back again add some more yards, shoot again. The object is to have the perfect arrow flight with good arrow flight and impact at all these distances. The reason is if you accomplish this the arrow is impacting the target with energy to burn for those important pass throughs we all need to make cleaner and quicker kills. Now it will take a while for each of you to determine the best combination for your shooting style and bow combination. By now you realize there are a million to the umteenth pwer of combinations available to choose from. Now is the time to get the homework done before the season starts to get honed in, so everything is on auto pilot when the moment of truth comes. Hope you can get some use out this. Later,Jacques

[Hank]

As far as prefered limb cores in a longbow regarding Zebra Longbows and Louie's thoughts on that, Louie wasn't that concerned about it, he thought if you could get air to hold the fiberglass apart it would work. The bow he made most of his remarkable hunting shots with was named "Old Hedge" and had 4 lams of osage orange. Many of the bows he sold had 5 lams and he said he did that for marketing purposes, telling us personally that 3 lams were fine.

Jacques' comments on the grip and the importance of it is some of the most profound insight and information I have read in this thread concerning shooting longbows -- thank you for sharing.

[Jacquesbonin]

Tom, I will go one further. When Howard was asked why he didn't shoot a recurve he said he wasn't good enough. Now that was an overstatement. Under hunting conditions he couldn't shoot them as well as the straight handle, having to shoot at odd angles and unpracticed shots. he simply couldn't set up for the target type of shot found on a course. So his simple answer was not so simple ater all. Nate can weight in on this as he has some insight on the subject. Later,Jacques