HH bug got me ... Part One!

[khardrunner]

I'm not sure I buy the physics argument with the grip that Jaques mentioned. I'm a physics nerd so I thought some about it. There's a lot more that goes into the forces involved in gripping a bow with minimal torque.

If straight works for you, then great. However, due to hand shape and drawing characteristics, there are a LOT of variables...too many to make a sweeping statement.

[Hank]

You can dance all around the straight grip and not get it, but one day it just clicks and the magic is there. Not only will there be a control without the need for mass weight, but you will notice a marked improvement in clean arrow flight.

[Ben Maher]

Good to see Hank chimin' in here ......

One of the sweetest bows I owned was a 4 lam all osage Hill ... boy did I take some game with that bow ... I sure knew about it as it 'bumped' more than my others but it was so smooth .....

Mr Kleinig should be reporting on a similiar bow real soon .....

[Jacquesbonin]

Kyle, I am not trying to tell anyone what to shoot. However as I tried to allude to with the recurve and Howard comment. The MAN could shoot anything he wanted, but chose to shoot the straight grip! I know all about lateral forces and all the terminology that goes with it, being employed and doing engineering for at least thirty of the forty years I have worked. I am pointing out the differences as I see them in terms everyone can relate to. there are so many aspects of the Hill bow most who use them wouldn't understand the role each play in making up the whole. Most everyone on this thread has a longer draw than I do. Man for me that s--ks, so anything that improves performance for my short draw is duly noted. I have shot the Hill style bow for 1/2 a century. After putting in that much time, I have learn so much about the bow itself and the different reactions from grip selection. Quite a few people have noted the sentivity I have developed to the differences in the bows and how they perform. I just wanted to shed some light on the subject. Over to you. Later,Jacques

[Jacquesbonin]

Now some thoughts on limb cores. The least number of cores would be better from a manufacturing stand point, however the bamboo nodes introduce a weakness. that is why they are staggered in the limb. The belly side it doesn't effect, the back however can develope fatique and separate at the node. This condition doesn't effect the bow if backed by glass, so don't worry and run to your bows and start looking for it. The point I am trying to make here is the ideal would be a self core or bamboo without any nodes. I think finding bamboo that large to work from is out of the question. I did have several bows that were made with the nodes removed by slash taper, to eliminate them. however the cost and time invested for the gains that couldn't be noticed didn't warrant revisiting the project. there are so many mediums to work with that out perform bamboo. I think that the future will bring new materials and method use that improves performance and may be easier on the manufacturer and may have added longevity to the Hill style bow. I for one enjoy the simplicity. Later,Jacques

[khardrunner]

Jacques, I am not out to get you here, I'm just thinking through this as a guy who teaches physics for a living. I have nothing against the straight grip and usually prefer that. I don't doubt your accomplishment or experience, only your physics :-). I say all this in a humble and slightly debative manner... just for fun. Feel free to disengage if this isn't what you want to discuss. I'm just interested since you brought physics into it.

Explain to me how an 1/8-1/4 inch dish causes more lateral or torquing force. I picked that just for the sake of discussion.

[Nate Steen .]

Following up Jacques about the grip, my observations....

If you grip like Hill did, with a bent wrist (lots of photos and movie shorts to verify this) and grip with the fingers in the pads between the first and second knuckles "as you would when lifting a heavy suitcase" you will notice that you are pulling the bow straight back into the meat of the hand.  There is no fingertip pressure at all if the handle is the correct size, therefore you are gripping and applying pressure directly through the center of the bow from back to belly.  Looking at Hill pics you will notice that the finger pads (between first and second knuckle) are lined up down the back of the bowhandle,  his second knuckles are not lined up with the back like so many people do today.  If the hand is rotated around the handle in order to get the first thumb knuckle in line with the belly of the grip, then in order to hold onto the bow with control you will squeeze with the fingertips, and that squeezing is off-center of the bow.  

Learn to squeeze without using the fingertips but rather squeeze with the finger pads between the first and second joints.  Also,  if you have the proper placement of the handle into the palm,  you can actually pull the bow and shoot with all fingers and thumb pointing at the target, completely open hand...( try that with your thumb knuckle in line with the belly, your hand will slip off the grip)...this means that you don't have to death grip the handle to keep it in place, the pressure of the bow weight during draw will keep it in place.  Just squeeze a little more firmly with the bottom fingers to allow the bottom limb to bend correctly.

[Hawken1911]

Quick...let's get past page 666  :eek:

[khardrunner]

Someone should post some pretty pics... or a nice video :-)

[Bud B.]

Originally posted by Hawken1911:
Quick...let's get past page 666   :eek:  

Ditto

[Basil_K]

I need an old priest and a young priest...

[Bud B.]

In the last three pages I've read more thought provoking shooter form information that has me realizing several errors I'm committing. These pages have been very informative.

Thanks Jacques, Ron, and Nate. Others too, but their posts the last day or two have really got me seeing errors in my form. Keep posting. I'm locked in. This is good stuff  

Thanks guys.

[Raminshooter]

Nate, here is an observation I have made and would appreciate your insights on.  I have a number of Howards films and have spent countless hours watching Howard shoot, mostly watching over and over in slow motion.  Here is what I notice:   Howard has the absolute best bow arm form I think you can find.  With his grip, it forces you to keep the bow arm BENT and this is the only way to accomplish two important things in shooiting a Hill style bow (I think anyway):  (1) with a proper bend to the bow arm you can achieve the constant "push-pull" that you need for a good release and (2) that bent bow arm is what really gives you the control in shooting these types of bows.  At least this is what I have taken away from Howards form and in my own practice it works. Your thoughts?

[Goshawkin]

What was Howard Hill's draw length? I recall reading a thought on his shooting,was that alot of his form was to shorten his draw length.He was a big tall guy,but his draw length was shorter than you'd expect.I don't know if this is true or not,but thought I would ask.

[john gilbert]

I cannot understand the bent arm, while pushing concept. I have tried it. Perhaps I just aint coordinated enough. When I am pushing with my bow arm, it has to be straight and locked. I have not had any problems with my bow arm locked. No injuries and all that stuff we hear folks talk about. I really like the feel of a heavy Hill spreadin me wings apart:)

[khardrunner]

Mine is only slightly bent. Pretty straight but not locked.

   

VIDEO... Click it to watch

[john gilbert]

khard, whatcha fixin to shoot there? woodchuck or corn?

[cahaba]

DELETE please

[khardrunner]

Wish there was a chuck down there but no, I was shooting at a homemade toss out there and hit this target.

[Ben Maher]

I understand that my elbow bends as it is the nature of the low wrist grip for me , but I need to keep is as straight as my low wrist grip allows as it promotes the bone on bone alignment I need to be consistant
ymmv