Trad values, hunter values

[Bonebuster]

I too love to see all the posts for everyones success, be it a doe, buck, or squirrel.

That IS value, and ETHICS.

[Glenn29]

Antler size has nothing to do with ethics. I just killed a 5 inch spike here in Florida with my recurve and that deer meant ten times more to me the rifle killed deer(s) on my wall.

Tradtional Archery has brought me back to my hunting roots and where my ethics began.

[Richie Nell]

I just personally don't undersand why so many people say, after taking a young buck, "That is a good buck for a recurve" vs. a gun.
The deer is dead regardless of the weapon.  If it wasn't good enough for a gun then why is it for a bow.  The deer is still dead and will never see a mature day in it's life.

String cutter says "that I didn't take an easier way", referring about taking the young buck.  That is the easier way.  The traditional way is not the hard way.  It is just shooting a bow.  Take a mature buck.  That is the hard way.  

I guess you have to give at least .02 cents for sound management of the animals.

I am not suggesting that taking young bucks is a morally wrong thing to do.  I am just very surprised that the traditional type would think that way.
Richie

[BUFF]

Richie... you never know what was in their heart when they shot the little buck. I have had the good fortune to be able to hunt a lot of places and take a lot of great animals with a bow. When I was about 19 myself and a friend both shot what you call a baby buck with our recurves. One little spike and one was a little fork horn. That night setting at our camp fire looking at our two deer hanging in the fire light, I have never been prouder of an animal.

[Richie Nell]

That is exactly my point.  Those are good times and great memories, no doubt.  I just thought that more experienced hunters would not be proud of little baby bucks any longer.  It is so much better, I think, to take a doe than to continue to decrease the buck population via taking them when they are extremely easy to harvest because they are so young.  

Again, please understand that I am not suggesting you or anyone else is morally wrong.  I just highly disagree due to sound reasoning.

I have never taken a buck with my bow.  I have taken many does and passed many bucks.  I went elk hunting for the first time this year and harvested a 6x5 bull.  The more and more I have learned about elk hunting in the last month the more I realize that he was probably too small and young.  Now I know it will do nothing for me to harvest a less than mature bull again.

Like other guys are saying, we want a challenge and not take the easy way of hunting, hence the traditional equipment.  
That is my point exactly.

So anyway, thanks for the discussion.

[Mike Bolin]

I see what you're saying Ritchie, but I went back and reveiwed some of the posts you are (I think) talking about. In many cases these deer were among the first, if not the very first deer they had taken with a trad bow. Also many of the places these folks hunt is on over-hunted public land and just seeing a deer, let alone getting a shot is an accomplishment! I looked over the post that had a title of something like..."how many are lookig for their first" and I was kind of surprised of the number of folks that are long time members here that are indeed "looking for their first". I thinks it is really cool that when they do get their deer, the folks here at tradgang are some of the first to hear the story and see the photos! It's all good if the deer is taken legally and ethically! Hunt hard and hunt safe! Mike

[SteveB]

Ethics and the tool in your hand have little to nothing in common.
The tool by itself causes neither good or bad ethics.

[GingivitisKahn]

I'm w/ SteveB.  My son is just starting to hunt this year w/ traditional archery gear (he's never had a wheelie bow - woot!) but still prefers a rifle or shotgun for small game.

This evening, he hit a squirrel (shotgun) that fell down a hill out of sight, rolled and buried itself almost completely in leaves.  He refused to stop looking for it, but finally ended up recovering it about 30 minutes after the kill.  He just showed me the heart by the way - a pellet went through it.

Anyway, to me that level of respect for even small game, shows exactly the sort of hunting ethics I expect to see out of my boy.  The tool he used has  nothing to do with anything.  His persistence, on the other hand - that displays (imo) great hunting ethics.

[Landshark160]

I think some of you guys who pass on small bucks have never hunted in a place where you may go an entire season and only get 5 deer within 20 yards.  I'm not talking about a week long season either.  I'm talking about hunting hard for 3 months, basically going hunting at least once a day.  I am constantly amazed, after reading some of the posts on here, at the number of game animals that seem to populate other areas of our country.  I spend around 20 hours on stand for every deer I see.  Probably close to 40 hours for every one that comes within bow range.  

I hunt deer.  I don't differentiate between buck or doe, large or small.  To me, it's the challenge of getting within 20 yards of a deer, any deer, and then being able to perform under pressure.

I have been hunting for 24 years.  I have seen exactly 4 bucks from the stand that were large enough to mount.  FOUR!!!    Only two of the four came to within 20 yards.  Depending on where you live, 2 of those 4 would possibly fall into the category of "small buck".

So for those of you who live in an area where deer are plentiful, GIVE THANKS!  And the next time you watch that small buck walk away, just remember there are some who would be proud to take him.

[ChuckC]

Ritchie.  Many of us..OK...me...  don't count my success bu how many points a deer has.  Sure, if two deer stand out there and one is huge and one isn't. well, guess which one I might take a shot at.   But.....  I would gladly shoot a small deer if that is my "gift " for the day.  

I shot a button buck the other day.  Granted, I thought it was a young doe, but I took it instead of the adult doe because it was in the wrong place at the wrong time and seconds from busting me.  I had been hunting from the ground for the several trips prior and had been "aaaaalmost" to killing a deer each time.  and each time, something happened.  

I wanted some meat in the freezer and the opportunity presented.  In southern Wisconsin, in my area, I can take an unlimited number of deer.  I didn't burn up my only tag, which certainly had a play in this.  Nope, not bragging about shooting that "baby buck".  It was a stupid inquisitive youngster.  Neither though am I embarrased for having done so.  I eat meat and now have some meat in my freezer and more tags in my pocket.  

You gotta understand...not everybody thinks alike.  Some want only the trophy buck. To them waiting the whole season for one buck is the challenge. But..QDM is not the cure all that some people think it is.   Some... just want to hunt...period.
ChuckC

[ChuckC]

Ah....continuing on.  Ritchie.  You are seeing one side of the story.  I use a longbow, and make longbows, and arrows and quivers and other assorted gear, not because it is more difficult, or because it is currently cool, or to stand out.  I do it because it is what I do.  Shooting a longbow is fun and inspires me.  I have a great time with it.  Plus, I can succesfully hunt with it...well, sometimes anyway.

Why do you feel you need to limit yourself to a larger bull next time.  Do you think people will look down at you ?  Did you not thoroughly enjoy that fine meat you earned ?  and that time in the mountains earning it ?  Didn't that count at all ?  Again.  we think differently.  That's all.  You have your goals, I have mine.  and its OK...
ChuckC

[rdoggsilva]

I have hunted with traditional bows and muzzleloaders since the early 70's. One thing I have to say is that those of us that hunt trad are more helpful and understanding of each other. More so than rifle or compound hunters towords new comers. We will take the time to help and share the knowledge we have, also the stories and traditions of our sport, be it archery or muzzleloading. This we most do or we will lose all the way around.

[Molson]

To me, a hunter who says, "Who am I to judge?" is saying they could care less about those who came before and those who will lead in the future.  Ethics are created by those who participate.  If you participate, you not only have every right to judge the actions of others, you are obligated to judge them.  Just remember to judge yourself harder than you do the next guy.  If you don't, someone else will, whether you want them to or not.

[Biggie Hoffman]

I've also noticed that longtime Trad guys, I mean guys who like me are afflicted with bowhunting t the point that we mmmmmiss birthdays, holidays,etc. Stay married a long time. And not just token marriages but reall loving committed relationships. That definately comes from values that we have that transcend from/to bowhunting. Jill and I have been married 32 years, Jerry Brumm, over 40 years, Ben Dodge, 30 something, Gene Wensel, mmmmm near 40 years as is Barry, Marty Mcmahon over 30 years. I don't think it's a coincidence.

[Danny Rowan]

Richie,

The taking of "baby bucks" as you call them is actually a good thing for the herd as far as genitics go. Any wildlife biologist will tell you that if you want to improve the bucks in your herd kill off the spikes cause they will not contribute to a good gene pool, nothing wrong with it. Any deer with a bow taken cleanly is something to be proud of. JMHO.

Danny

[Richie Nell]

Chuck....I am heading out to the woods now but had a thought as I read the last posts.  Another thing that comes into play here is competetion.  I am very competetive.  Not showing others with what I harvest but wanting to harvest the best.  With the elk, I want to harvest the biggest out there, the herd bull.  I didn't know that at the time but I have learned more now and that is my goal.  A young bull will not satisfy me. I want the daddy bull.  It is kind of like sports.  I had a several full scholarships to play baseball at small colleges.  I didn't want that I wanted to know what I cold do at a Division I school so I played football at Auburn.  Now I know I could play at the top level.
That is how I think. I also realize everyone else doesn't have to think that way to be right.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ethics is a way of the mind. You set your to a level that might be higher then others, Nothing wrong with that. I do beleave that Trad hunters do show more respect to others then compound/firearm hunters do. Another site I go to ( mostly wheelie & firearm hunters, would rag on ppl that take Button bucks, shoot more then 2 DOEs in a season or don't have the newer hunting toys.

I switched to a Trad Bow, because of the respect for the Game I hunt, & to be in the Zen of the flight of the Arrow. Not to be to corny....I do agree with lots of the other posters from here on this, That We as Trad Archers like the way things where.... Our Tradition is something we need, more then the how many we kill.

I just love to be out in the woods, watching deer, tree rats & the birds doing what they do. I hunt for Meat for my Family & friends that need help. Killing is a perk, nothing more ( in my book )if you need to kill more things... GET A GUN, If You need peace of mind... GET A TRAD BOW.

[Richie Nell]

Danny,
The statements you made about baby bucks and genetics could not be farther from the truth.  Only since you brought it up, I am a wildlife biologist and consultant and know without a doubt that genetics is the last thing to worry about in a deer herd.  Older bucks with a nice set of antlers were all young one day with small antlers.  That is called an uneducated baby buck.  That is what I have been referring to in this post.

[Shawn Leonard]

I gotta agree on the marriage issue with Biggie, I am only 42 and been with the same girl 25 years and married going on 22 years. I just find it hard to judge others and what is ethical, there are things that are obvious, but others are borderline, hunting over bait, road hunting, lighted sights and hunting hogs at night, where legal I do not have a problem with them, but I know tons of people who wold say they are not ethical. Who am I to judge what others feel good about. Please do not think I disagree with what ethiocs stand for but or some it is a fine line and others it is pretty broad! Shawn

[Molson]

I understand what you're saying Shawn.  But...You don't strike me as the type of person who would put up with a bunch of nonsense.  I would venture to say that if you knew someone who was wounding deer taking 40 yard shots with 20 yard skills it wouldn't take you too long to have a sit down with them.

Those things you mention are more regional ethics than hunter ethics.  I think the problems you see in judging others come from individuals who do not know the difference between hunter ethics, regional ethics, and personal choice.