Trad values, hunter values

[Mudd]

I think I understand Mr. Nell. I also think you by your example with the elk represtented what a lot of the "Baby buck" shooters did. I would be surprised if the majority of those folks would take that same shot if it presented itself the next time out If we want to have bigger bucks we have to pass on the younger smaller ones. But I find myself asking why? Is it for the prestige? or the big "bucks"$$$? that will bring in the high dollar out-of-state hunters??
I ramble too much!!
Good hunting!
God bless,Mudd

ps ethics and legal can be the same thing but not always.

[Wulomac]

As I read the discussion being carried on here I see the point originally made by Maddog.  The very fact that an intelligent disagreement with both sides sharing and listening (reading) and being so dedicated shows the caliber of folks visiting this site regularly.  Well done Maddog  for starting this thread!

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

I have to agree with Wulamoc. I've seen a lot of these discussions on others sites, and they usually go down the tubes pretty fast.

On another note, I'm not sure where the idea that a recurve or longbow automatically makes one more ethical or dedicated came from, but I haven't seen it myself. I've had the pleasure of hunting with a lot of geat folks over the years. Some of them used trad bows and others chose compounds or even firearms.

In contrast, there are a number of people I choose not to walk a trail with again. A lot of them carried stickbows. I was on a hunt out west a few years ago where a guy with a maximum 15-yard effective range (and that's being generous) took a Hail Mary 40-yard shot on a bull, wounded it and then didn't have any real desire to follow up the trail. He hunted with a recurve, by the way.

I could post a laundry list of other things I've personally seen over the years, including trespassing and hunting in no hunting areas of state parks. I even once had some traditional bowhunters intentionally drive deer out of an area they knew I was hunting. Why? I have no idea.

Now, obviously these folks are in the minority. But it doesn't serve us well to blindly think a fellow hunter is ethical just because they can unstring their bow at the end of the day.

These days I tend to choose my hunting companions very well. And I can assure you, whether or not they have wheels on the ends of their bow limbs doesn't come into play.

[larryh]

out here in washington if you only killed the monster bull elk you would be violating game laws unless you were lucky enough to have drawn a special permit. it's spikes only for the rest of us, except that cows are generally legal in bow season.
personally i only hunt does when they are legal. they eat better for me. i hunt cow elk for the same reason.
i find it hard to relate the size of horns on an animal to the hunters personal ethics. i also think that even biologists should be cautious in making blank statements to an audience that covers 50 states. conditions are very different in some of the western states than some or most of the southern and eastern states, as are the laws.
larry hatfield

[Flesner]

Personaly, I find competitive hunting attitudes revolting.
If that is your motivation, I would prefer you take up golf, Richie.

That, of course, is my not so humble opinion.    

[Richie Nell]

Larry H.... In previous posts I was referring to whitetail deer.  All deer are first young with small antlers and then older with large antlers.  This happens in every state that has deer.  I know nothing about managing an elk herd but I have a good idea why they outlaw the harvest of spike bulls in Durango, CO. Don't you?  
Also I have not said anything about ethics relating to antler size.  It has nothing to do with it unless it is illegal.
Ethics is deciding whether to cross a property line after a gobbler.

Ethics is deciding whether to go ahead and shoot 14 doves when 12 is the legal limit.

Bad ethics is illegally hunting over bait because all the other members are doing it and the game warden is in the north part of the county anyway.

Bad ethics is killing a double limit of mallards when your buddy is with you but killing none.

Bad ethics is killing a deer, cutting out the backstraps and leaving the rest.

Good ethics is making what you think is a lethal shot on a bull elk, not finding the animal but filling your tag anyway.

Good ethics is taking responsibility for your deer dogs when they get on someone else land without permission.
Again, I have said or implied nothing about shooting baby bucks was unethical or morally wrong.  I have only said that it surprises me that the "traditional bow" type hunter still gets satisfaction from taking a baby buck.  And that is from experienced hunters doing that.  That is surprising to me.

Flesner...I agree with you that competitive hunting is revolting. If you are suggesting I am a competitive hunter you need to read the  posts again.  As I have said I am very competitive but have never harvested a buck with my bow.  I am challanged by myself not anyone else.  
Also I do play golf some but would rather play baseball, which I do now.

[Shawn Leonard]

Molson, I do believe i am very ethical, but some may not. Ya see what I mean, regional or not. I know what is right and wrong but again what is ethical and not, I have my thoughts but so do others. I think Biggie and i would really like each other as we are very much alike and I have the utmost respect for him. I just find it tough to make such a broad statement as the one that started this thread. Weapon of choice does and should not matter in these discussions. Shawn

[Richie Nell]

I am appreciative of your comments.  I think we all, me anyway, get to be better people/hunters by bouncing off thoughts and ideas on a quality subject as this.

[Danny Rowan]

Well, Richie, I know some wildlife bilogists in Texas that would strongly disagree with you about spikes.

Danny

[Richie Nell]

Danny....I have done the research.

[Richie Nell]

But that is Ok...no problem

[Molson]

I agree that weapon choice has little to do with ethical behavior, but I think the statement starting this thread is generally true.  Not because of weapon choice, but because those who are drawn to traditional archery (and stick with it) tend to devote more of themselves to the journey, rather than the destination.

I believe it is important to remind those who participate, in any form of hunting, that we as a group, and as individuals, have high expectations of them. Debate over what is and isn't ethical or what should or shouldn't be legal, is a necessary part of the education/preservation process.

As someone mentioned earlier, ethical and legal are not always the same.  Many laws are created as a result of some greasy politician taking a bribe from a special interest whose concern for wildlife travels no further than the dollar in their pocket.

[Wulomac]

Amen, Molson!

[Jeremy]

Weapon choice has little to do with ethics.  My experiences are similar to Jason's and come across some stickbow shooters I'd prefer not to share the same lot of woods with.

As for the baby buck comments, here in CT good management is taking whatever comes within range.  Populations in many parts of the state are triple what the land can support and hunter numbers still decreasing.  Take a walk through the woods and you can see what overpopulation will do to an area.

 

it surprises me that the "traditional bow" type hunter still gets satisfaction from taking a baby buck.

If you want real 'satisfaction' go after the mature does.  There's something about that statement that really rubs me the wrong way, and I'll just leave it at that.

[Richie Nell]

Jeremy..I agree..Your are correct when referring to situations on the east coast when populations are to the extreme.

But I am still surprised... That the Traditional type hunter is satisfied by taking a young buck.

I have worked with, hunted with, trailed deer with hunters from all over the world.

It is my fault for expecting too much from a group of hunters that I respect the most.

[Minuteman]

I think its kinda conceited of you to expect others to live up to your self imposed standards. Like you got the market cornered on choosing the "right " deer to shoot or something.
  I just got back from watching a little spike buck from the cover of the fence row behind the barn, saw four does after he melted into the woods. One doe was obviously the matriarch of the group, much larger and seemed to be much more cautious.
 I'd have shot any one of the does, but probably not the spike. Thats a  standard that I've placed on myself.My brother and I have been passing up young uns for years now and see the benefits that come from letting them grow. Now I have two fellers that hunt here that haven't taken a deer with traditional archery equipment yet and they have free choice as to what they shoot. I tell them to take the first deer that gives them a good shot because that may be the only one they get. One of the two has missed twice already, over the back of the same doe.
 Starting folks out with a good buck or nothing rule is a good way to make them discouraged and set 'em up for disappointment.
 No disrespect meant to you sir but I can't help but feel as though by posting this thread you are trying to build yourself up for some reason.
 That being said if your self imposed standards work for you thats great but don't forget they are SELF imposed.
 Good hunting.

[Jeremy]

Why is it that when meeting new hunters and they find out I shoot a longbow they assume I'm an elitist snob?  Why is that such a prevalent stereotype?  Are there enough of us trad type hunters with that attitude to perpetuate the stereotype?

[Jeremy]

Let me make it clear I'm not attacking anyone in the above post.  I just thought it might be time to ask the darker question.  The initial 'group hug' question was nice and all, but we moved beyond that on page 2  
 

[Richie Nell]

Again, It is my fault that I personally expected for the "traditional type" experienced hunter would still be satisfied with taking a young buck rather than, a) Allowing him to mature into an older mature buck and b) not taking a doe instead if given the choice.

I am in no way trying to change your mind. I am just speaking my mind in hopefully a respectful manner.

No problem to the ones that dissagree with me.  I am just saying it is my fault, mine alone, for expecting more from the group of hunters I respect the most and the same group of hunters that I personally have put on a pedestal.

Whoops!

The conversing is appreciated.

[vermonster13]

I think this thread has passed into something entirely different from it's original intention and it's time has passed. Thanks to all who posted.