About to give up the stick and string

[Rico]

You have some serious issue not to be getting good penetration with a 63# bow and carbon arrows I doubt you could be so badly tunned and not  notice poor arrow flight.
  I also suspect in the excitement you are not reaching any where near  full draw. Done it myself a few times and  really have to concintrate.

[Bonebuster]

There has to be something going on to cause this lack of penetration.

My twelve yr old son shot his first trad deer two weeks ago and while his arrow did not pass through
his broadhead was through the opposite side. At his draw length he is geting 39lbs. His arrows weigh 410 grains, led by Zwickey Eskimos.

My personal set-up is a 63lb recurve and 610 grain carbon arrows with big Zwickey Deltas. If I don`t get a pass-thru it is because a big bone has been encountered. I don`t remember a single
time when my arrow did not make two holes.

I just wonder if you are not reaching full draw as Rico mentioned.

[ArrowAtomik]

If you hit a rib bone, deer will almost always panic, regardless of a little twig hanging out of them or not.

I've had many deer without passthroughs, even with compounds, but never lost one.  Always they took off at warp speed, but none made it 100 yards.  My 43lb LB didn't manage to get through the off shoulder last week... but still left enough blood for a blind man.  Put it in the boiler room.  There is always anecdotal exceptions, but generally if you hit vital organs with razor broadheads, deer are just not that hard to kill.  While passthroughs are preferable, and every effort should be made to acheive them, they are also not required.
 
Don't let the bad luck of a sudden downpoor get to you.  Once the deer-loss mourning period begins to fade, get your arrows tuned, follow Ashby and get back on the horse.

[Bill Kissner]

I want to echo some of what others have said. If you are drawing the full 28 inches, your arrows are pretty much on the weak side, especially with broadheads mounted. An arrow that doesn't fly true is a disaster on penetration. I shoot 60# @ 29 and have to use the Carbon Express 350's with 125 grain broadheads. With heavier broadheads up front, even the 350's are a little weak.

First thing I would do is some bareshafting WITH the BROADHEADS on the arrows. I would venture to guess you will find them very weak spined with a bow that heavy.

[J-dog]

yeah you have a setup problem somewhere-maybe in weight or FOC? still those arras should be blow throughs at that poundage. never can tell-sometimes they just dont go through.

Shame but keep after it

J

[legends1]

Conan-
      I understand your being upset.Although I agree with all the other guy's.Sometimes it dosn't matter who you are,when a dark cloud moves in over you It just seems like it will never blow away.Bad luck is just that bad luck.
I have been hunting for over 35 yrs,and yes I have lost a few also.Thats just part of archery.We don't like it but nevertheless its going to happen.And we would only be lying to ourself to think otherwise.And trust me,Compond shooters live with it also.
Dont put to much weight on a arrow being stuck in the grond to be a deadly shot.As long as the arrow cuts vital organs thats what counts.
I know some may disagree,but Im going to say it anyway.Im old school,I like wood or aluminum arrows.I like some weight in my arrow.If you like the carbon arrows maybe try alittle more weight in your carbon.The bow Im shooting this year Is one of my carbon limb bows fast-flight string 59# @ 32', 2219 arrow 125 Magnus 640grns.Most all shots on deer sized animals I find the arrow in the ground.But with that being said, I see that only as over kill.
I know I got abit long winded in this but I would hate to see you give up such a wouderful sport for the wrong reason.Hang-on old friend,your luck will change.-Mike

[Conan]

I'll get some brass inserts and weight tubes from 3 Rivers.

[TimZeigler]

tune it up and don't look over the option of using a string tracker, better than losing a deer. keep with it and good luck.  Tim

[Orion]

Nobody see the 800# gorilla in the room?  Pass throughs are nice, but not necessary to killing a deer.  If you've lost the last 4 deer you've shot with trad equipment, Look to your shot selection and placement, and perhaps tracking skills, not equipment.

[Brian Krebs]

steertalker mentioned if you are coming to full draw when shooting from your treestand. With a bow longer than the average arrow; its difficult to get in a position in treestands where you come to a complete draw.                      
                                               
There is another gorilla in the room; that is your personal attitude. When you release an arrow; you can do more bad in a split second with a trad bow- than you perhaps can with a 'whatever those bow things are called now' bow.  ( that IS a guess )      
                                               
 I can neuter a gnat with one shot; and miss by three feet the next - if I am not in total control until the arrow hits the target.          
                                               
 If your carrying the burden of thinking failure; it could be affecting your release; and therefore the shot. So too can being OVER confidant in your shooting... to where when you shoot at animals; you can loose concentration at the release.                  
                                                  Arrows can porpoise; they can wiggle back and forth- like a salmon about to jump the hoover dam.
                                               
 First thing in your description that came to my mind was sharpness of the broadhead. Second was that your release might be bad.              
                                             
 With the hit description you should have killed the deer; but you did sound a bit defeatist in how you looked at the situation after the hit. That could effect your tracking of the deer.  
                                             
 I have put arrows totally through elk; deer; bears etc; and I have also killed many animals where the arrow did NOT pass through.        
                                                  This fall I shot under a deer; hitting its front leg way down low; and with some hard tracking - I got that deer. Its not all about blood sign; its about figuring out where the animal is going; if it tends to go left or right at obstacles; the side its hit on; the cover; the distance between imprints. A hit deer will leave a more distinct track...
                                               
 But I can tell you that if your not committed to finding the animal- due to weather or doubt of somekind; it is not going to help your tracking.                                    
                                                  I shoot two blade broadheads; and 4 blade zwickeys; which have not so much 4 blades as two tiny blades that seem to relieve the friction on the arrow surface- more than anything. I do not - because of experience with all kinds of game - shoot real 4 blade heads. If your release is not perfect using a 3 or 4 blade CAN screw up a kill.
 When I was tracking lots of bears hit with the new 'compound bow'; they were often not tuned. The arrows would come out porpoising; and when they hit ribs; they would stop right there.
 Three blade heads would hit with two blades; the untuned arrow would sent energy to the remaining blade; and the arrow would often actually flip over or under the bear. We often would see a bear shot this way a week later when it fell to another arrow; and I had a degree at that time: in what we now call criminal forensics. I inspected each wound with great seriousness.  
                                         
 Then; as now - tuning a bow was a big factor in the ability of an arrow to penetrate. So is release.                                      
                                             
 Keep your broadheads sharp; tune that bow; watch your arrow flight up to 80 yards; and do not give up. You can kill a deer with your bow !
  Traditional archery will not give up on you; please do not give up on traditional archery  

[Conan]

Thanks to all for your time and advice. I've been hunting with a stick n'string for 12 years and taken about 25 deer and 2 hogs with it. I'm not going to give it up (I just felt horrible) and I realize that it was a marginal hit since I didn't find it w/in 100yds. I just hope he makes it. A buddy of mine marginally hit a buck with his compound years back and I got it during the gun season in the same general area. It still had his broadhead in it. I'm going to try insert tubes and heavier brass inserts for more upfront weight. That should help.

[Conan]

Orion- Just to clear up the misconception about the 800lb gorilla. I've taken about 30 deer in 25yrs of bowhunting and lost 4, not the last 4. As far as I am concerned 1 is too many.

[StanM]

Hey Conan,

You've gotten some good advice here.  I've had a similar issue with penetration that you've experienced.  I think that some of mine was caused by shooting a multi-blade head.  But, honestly, I think sometimes it's just "one of those things".  I hit a buck in the ribs with a three blade broadhead a few years back.  It was really sharp, the arrow was bare-shaft tuned and flew like it should, and the weight was right around 600 grains.  The shot was from a 58 lbs at 28 inch recurve, drawn to 28.5 inches.  I was able to recover the deer, but I destroyed a rib on the way in, and the arrow was stopped on a rib on the other side.  I don't know why.  I don't know if I ever will.  I've also shot through a couple of bears and a few deer with this bow.  Two with three blade heads, the rest with two blades.

I feel for you.  Do everything you can to get your arrows flying well with broadheads.  Practice a lot.  Take good shots.  Those things you can control, other things sometimes just happen.  Don't beat yourself up too much over it, but on the other hand I like your attitude that 1 is too many.  It means it matters to you and that is a good thing.  I wish you the best of luck with your next shot.

Stan

[Labs4me]

Conan,

We know you're not a quitter- you're just upset over the thought of wounding an animal. As traditionalists, out of necessity we put a lot of effort into our hunting and when things don't turn out well- it stings. And a streak of misfortune is gut wrenching, but we've ALL been through it at some point in our hunting career.

It is important to remind yourself that no animal is ever wasted in Ma natures' way of fang, claw, disease and starvation. It's not like the animals we hunt EVER die of a less cruel fate than an arrow. Whether an arrow is followed by field dressing chores and a sense of accomplishment, OR A PACK OF COYOTES no animal is ever wasted.

When you calm down, think things through. If you're shooting a 63# bow, the issue is NOT that you are using traditional gear. Something else is going on even if it is not yet apparent. Think about the SHOT, REALLY think about it. What did you do differently in the excitement of the moment compared to when you're shooting 3" groups during no pressure practice sessions?

Think about it and you WILL work it out...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Conan,
Wsup Dude....try this, it helped me out... proper shooting alignment. shoulders/wrist/elbow & arrow should all be in-line with each other.

[Shawn Leonard]

I did not read all the post, but I get complete pass-thrus with 52# bow on a consistent basis. If ya shoot 3" groups at 25 yards you are one of the better Trad shooters out there. I have shot with a lot of guys and not many can do that. I would agree with JRW that yamay have a tuning issue. I would say ya need a bit more weight up front on those 250s. I shoulder shot a doe last week, the arrow went right thru the center of the near shoulder and hit the off shoulder low neqar the leg and it stuck to "s out the other side. No doubt if I had hit 6"s farther back it would of stuck in the ground on the other side. Make sure your heads are very sharp as well, I see guys hunting with heads that I would not target practice with. Shawn

[NDTerminator]

Pass throughs are nice, but if you get 8" or so of penetration on a broadside deer, you'll fully double lung it.  The critter will be just as dead as if the arrow passed through.

If the hit is good, it's about the tracking, and even then sometimes the conditions conspire against a a guy.  Just a fact of bowhunting.

As a comparison, when I was shooting compounds of 55-60lbs and 400 grain carbons, a pass through was a 50/50 proposition.  I got a lot more when I was shooting 450 grain 2213's.  My wife shoots a 45# Matthews with 380 grain carbons and rarely gets pass throughs but kills and recovers her deer.  She's a superbly accurate archer and picks her shots carefully.  She won the ND State 3D Women's title in 01'.

Frankly, I have much more confidence in a 20 yard pass though from one of my 50-55 lbs recurves shooting 525 grain 2413's with shaving sharp 2 blade Magnus or 3 blade Snuffers, than in my compound setups gathering dust in the closet...

[Pinecone]

Very good advice by all.  I often get pass throughs on my bows of 42# - 47#...so I echo what others have said about tuning, adding point weight, etc.  In addition, I agree that attitude  is important, proper shot selection essential, and a quick check on shooting form an imperative.  I also want to underscore the point that has already been made relative to concentration...total focus on the intended point of impact from the pre-aim through the arrow's strike.  Any minor lapse in this intense focus will negatively impact your shot...as once muscle memory (the mechanics of the shot)are ingrained in your body, it is the mind that pulls it all together and directs the path of the arrow.  When I have had problems with my shot in the past, it is this vital component of concentration that has typically required my attention.  Fixing that, fixed everything.

Hang in there!  

Claudia

[BillJ]

   total focus on the intended point of impact from the pre-aim through the arrow's strike. Any minor lapse in this intense focus will negatively impact your shot      

I'm not a very good shot, but I second Claudia's comment here.  I have found my best shooting occurs when I never take my mind / eye off that spot I'm aiming at until I see the arrow hit it.

My grandfather taught me to play golf, and his most useful contribution to my meager playing ability was the phrase "see the club hit the ball." It truly helps me.  And I think "seeing the arrow all the way to the point of impact" and not letting your concentration on "the spot" waver until it hits, is critical.

BillJ

[George D. Stout]

I just watched a program called Maximum Archery on the Outdoor Channel.  A guy with a compound bow, Carbon Express arrow, shot an elk right in the heart lung area from twenty yards and the arrow only penetrated about ten inches. It was downright disgusting to see him hold his thumb in the air and say great shot.  They got the elk the next morning.  My old lemonwood bow with a Howard Hill head would have penetrated better than that.

It's more about arrow flight, tuning and using appropriate broadheads.