Selfbow advise

[Michael Arnette]

Hello gang, I'm interested in starting to shoot self bows. Emphasis on shoot, as I don't want to make them. I have a few questions:

Can I shoot a Selfbow 3 under?
How long should I hold at full draw? My current style is a sustained hold of say 5 seconds?
What other things should I keep in mind in this learning process?

Also, what is a good source for a place to get a stock or used Selfbow?

[Longtoke]

RMSGear has a good amount of used selfbows. They would be good folks to call to ask those questions too.

Don't know anything about them myself.

[Michael Arnette]

Also, what is a good source for a laminated but all wood bow! Basically a selfbow but more durable right?

[mark Willoughby]

Big Jim has 2 Ed Scott selfbows for sale right now

[frank bullitt]

I would post on Bowyers forum, also.

[Pat B]

A laminated bow is a laminated bow, a selfbow is a selfbow. Neither is necessarily more durable than the other if handled properly.
 Ideally you don't want to hold any wood bow at full draw for long but 5 seconds shouldn't be too bad. I usually release as soon as I hit full draw but sometimes hold for a second or 2. Like any bow, if tillered properly 3 under isn't a problem.
 There are a few guys that sell selfbows. Be sure the bowyer will stand behind his(her) work and will go over the proper care for his bows.

[Fritz]

Pat B is the selfbow expert. I will throw in my opinion for what its worth. I tiller mine to shoot a fixed crawl and probably hold around the same amount of time as you do with no ill effects noticed. Don't ever start making them, unless you intend to keep on making them. It is very addictive!

[Sam McMichael]

Michael, I have read that some of the Native American tribes used the three under draw, so a well made bow should work fine. I have also been shooting these bows for the last couple of years. They are fun. It has never crossed my mind that holding full draw was a problem. I hold for 3 or 4 seconds sometimes. I have had no problems, but have other guys had issues that you know of?

[Mark Baker]

Here's my thought on "holding" a selfbow or all-wood bow at full draw....

A wood bow is as near to it's breaking point as it can be at full draw.  Maximum stress on the limbs - whether you believe it or not, bows don't last forever, and wood bows probably the least of any.  This is simply due to the materials, assuming workmanship is top-notch.  This doesn't mean a wood bow won't last many years, but it won't last as long as more modern trad bows with superior materials.   That's why certain species of wood are better to build bows with.  
Think about bending a steel rod over and over again...at some point the "weak spot" will be overcome and the steel will break.  Same with a bow.   Wood bows only possess a limited number of "shots" or draws in their lifespan.  To draw a bow to it's full potential (full draw) is making the wood undergo it's maximum stress.  Holding that bow at full draw, it seems to me, bleeds the life out of the wood.   The less you hold, IMO, the longer that bow will last.   That doesn't mean you should go and radically change your style of shooting, but there is a lot of misinformation about these bows that gets thrown around that isn't entirely true.  

The 3-under tillering thing is no problem.   I've built and shot and hunted continuously with wood bows now for 30 years, and I love the things....but they are not as durable, as fast, as easy to "master", as more modern traditional bows.  Some will say they are...and "some" come close to being "there", but in general they are more challenging period.   But....and many never get this point...that is the thing that makes them and your experiences with them more special, and more rewarding.

[Roy from Pa]

You need to buy a wooden bow that has been tillered for three under if that's how you are going to shoot it.

[YosemiteSam]

I'm lost.  What's the point of shooting a selfbow if  you didn't make it yourself?  Aren't you just buying a crappy, finicky, fragile bow?

As for tillering, my understanding is that the positive tiller given to most selfbows is done under the assumption of shooting split finger where there is a little extra stress on the lower limb.  Shooting 3 under requires a higher nocking point (I set mine around 3/4"), putting your fingers almost perfectly at the middle of the bow (assuming the shelf is about 1.5" from center).  So an even tiller is better for shooting 3 under and a positive tiller is better for 3 under.  I'm rather new at traditional archery and selfbows so those with more knowledge and experience can correct me or elaborate here.

I recently finished a maple board bow that, after all my finish sanding, ended up with a negative tiller (stiffer upper limb).  Funny thing is that it still shoots fine.  It could be better but I wouldn't hesitate to take it hunting & just might take it for spring turkey if I can learn to shoot it better.  

I'm noticing that selfbows are like nagging family members that point out every single flaw you have and exploit it at every chance.  This is true for the construction process and the shooting process.  It can be frustrating as hell but I've learned a lot about myself in the process.  So if you want to learn to shoot somebody else's selfbow, you'll learn a lot about everything you do just slightly wrong or inconsistently.  But without the gratification that comes with shooting YOUR bow.  Again, I'm missing your point.

[michaelschwister]

I would argue against the assertion that selfbows are crappy, finicky, or fragile. Sure, it takes time for most bowyers to get to the the stage where they are equal, but it is certainly possible, at least with osage.  For the last 4 or so years I have been making osage selfbows that are equal, if not superior to glass lam bows with the same profile.  Shot side by side, and tested on the same chronograph.  I can shoot tighter groups with a selfbow than any of my glass lam bows, and shoot them one arrow switch, ne arrow switch. This year I have had (Made by me) 3 glass lam bows become inoperative for multiple reasons, while the number is zero for selfbows I have made. AND, a catastrophic failure of a selfbow is almost aways repairable with sinew.  A blown glass lam bow is dead.

Now to the OP. Just get one and shoot it. My 2 cents

[michaelschwister]

I should add that I started making selfbows from osage in 1992.  I was able to get to the about "equal" stage in about 2012. With about 150 bows in between.

[Michael Arnette]

Originally posted by michaelschwister:
I should add that I started making selfbows from osage in 1992.  I was able to get to the about "equal" stage in about 2012. With about 150 bows in between.

Why I would like to buy LOL

[Ted Fry]

Probably one of the most misunderstood or should I say least understood pieces of archery equipment , selfbows.
Reminds me of a joke we have here in the store, Adam and Eve in the garden, in front of them are two trees, one says Tree of knowledge, the other Tree of commonly believed misconceptions.

[YosemiteSam]

Originally posted by michaelschwister:
I would argue against the assertion that selfbows are crappy, finicky, or fragile.

I was speaking for myself & probably 95%+ of the people who make bows for themselves.  Besides, when I read "selfbow" I think of something you just make for yourself to use & making it yourself is the point.  If you've been building for 20+ years with forests worth of shavings in your experience, I would consider you in the custom bowyer or professional bowyer category -- regardless of the materials or methods used.  Semantics, I guess.  No disrespect intended.

[Mark Baker]

I have to respectfully disagree, Micheal.  Maybe it's just my experience, and I'll chock it up to that.  I just don't want new folks to think that their selfbow will be everything that their custom bow has been.  Likely it will not. In other ways, though, it will be more - especially if it's something your built.  I started building wood bows in the mid-eighties...and I feel like I can build a bow that will perform with anybody's selfbow.  Like you said, after a couple hundred bows you figure it out.  I still have not made a single wood bow that would perform - speed wise - with any of a dozen custom laminated bows or even some stock laminated bows.  Some get close...but not quite there.  There is a reason folks use glass bows....and it's not just because they are easier to mass-produce.  I shoot my wood bows almost exclusively, and hunt with them exclusively.   Some are easier to shoot than others...and in terms of user-friendly - on par with the glass bows.  But in all honesty (and I am as big a fan of selfbows as you can find) I can grab my Robertson longbow, and drive tacks with it 10 yards further than I can with my selfbows.  

I never said, or meant to imply, that selfbows are crappy or fragile...they are just different.  They have their advantages and their own "needs".  Any user needs to know that.   It's one thing to be vocal cheerleader for the discipline, but you also have to be aware of the downsides as well, so you don't fall into the traps and loose your enthusiasm rather than understand and get past them.

There are certainly a lot of immensely talented wood bowyers on this site and others....and they can surely steer you right.   Michael is one of the successful hunters I see regularly here and his wisdom is something to listen to.   I don't want to throw any water on the fire...just be real about stuff.

[Longtoke]

oh man I would love to get my hands on one of those bows Ed Scott made.

[frank bullitt]

Three books, I recommend,
Witchery of Archery, Maurice Thompson.

Hunting with the Bow and Arrow, Saxton Pope.

The Old Bowhunter, Chester Stevenson/Nick Nott.

Art Young, shot three under, to his chin!

There are many on here, that have made, shot, and killed animals with natural, selfbows!