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Author Topic: Blood tracking dog  (Read 1555 times)

Offline TURKEYFOOTGIRL

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2016, 08:59:00 PM »
Ive got 3. 2 Drahthaars and a wirehaired daschund. To get a good dog its  a lot of work. Our Daschund is only ten months old with lots of promise. Only had her on two real tracks so far.
"Life's too short for ugly bows n arrows" Chris B

Offline Jerry Russell

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2016, 08:13:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ryan Rothhaar:
Michael - we've been seriously tracking with our standard sized smooth teckel (dachshund of European ie hunting, bloodlines) for 7 years.  I've posted a lot.... and have answered your questions from my perspective a few times... search Oskar (our dog's name) on powwow or my posts on here and you'll get some info to read.

The main thing....get the dog that is right for YOU....just like a bow, one size does NOT fit all.  You'll track with him 3 months a year and live with him for 12....get a breed YOU and YOUR family can live with.

Don't get bamboozled by the salesmanship.... the REAL experience is in Europe, blood tracking with dogs is nothing new or magic, there is a thousand year history of tracking over there, the average hunter there knows as much about it as most of the "experts" in the USA.  Get a dog from proven bloodlines, with a good background of health history in the pedigree, with good prey drive and you are in business.  I would disagree that there are specialized breeds beyond a couple from Europe that are extremely difficult to import into the US (for instance proven Bavarian bloodhounds), the European type dogs used in the US - generally teckels, whether smooth, wirehaired, or long haired, or German wirehaired pointers (Drahthaars) are generalists, not specialists.... but they are smart enough to know what you want and what to do at a given time.

Ted is exactly right that the key is learning your dog - the reality is the dog knows how to do this instinctually...he trains YOU - not the other way around.  The teamwork is key - you can't just be a dope on a rope behind the dog.

John's book is a good primer, and a must have for someone getting started, but you also need to be sure you find a breeder with enough experience and "dogmanship" to support you in the training... the breeder should be the expert on their dogs and should be more than willing to spend the time with you that you need.

Be careful, too... blood tracking is a fad right now and I've heard of pet breeders selling "tracking dogs", if the breeder doesn't track that would be a red flag to me.

We love it, my wife is the primary handler, and Oskar has found right at 50 deer so far.  He lives to hunt and track, and we've made some great friends in this hobby.... also have avoided some sleepless nights with marginal hits.

It is a bunch of work, and takes dedication, but can add a whole new dimension to your hunting.  I owe it to my wife who is the dog person here..she developed Oskar to his current level.  She handled him in DTK VsWP (blood track testing sanctioned and judged by the German breed club - this is how these dogs are registered) testing a few years back (he was 3 or 4 yrs old) and achieved Prize 1 performance in both the 20 and 40 hour tests.  As of then he was the only teckel in the United States to test to this level in sanctioned DTK testing.  There is dog potential in the States, just be sure you find the breed that will make YOU happy long term.

R
This is sound advice.  Take it.

Get the book Tracking dogs for finding wounded deer 3rd addition-green cover.  There is so much about blood dogs and their training that is counterintuitive.  This book covers all aspects from choosing a puppy to training.  Ryan said it best when he said that not all dogs fit every handler and situation.  

The first consideration should be a dog that fits your family but right next to that is how will the dog be used.  
Will he be run off lead (legal in OK) and do you want a cold nosed dog.

Off lead dogs that can bay and catch a wound deer will recover far more deer than one run on lead.  Lacy dogs, cur dogs and others are just some to consider here.  The draw back here is the danger associated with running of lead.  Wounded deer and bears goring, traffic, alligators being just a few.  I personally know handlers that have lost dogs to all of these in the last year.  So, just because it's legal doesn't make it a good fit for everyone.  

On lead dogs require situational consideration as well.  The very first being how the dog will be used.  If the dog is for personal use where most every track is hot (under 8 hours old) the selection of breed is less critical.  I could teach a cat to track hot lines, lol.  All I can offer for advice here is DO NOT get a big dog.  I have run them all in 34 years of handling blood dogs and being dragged through heavy brush by a massive dog is NOT fun.  A dog under 40 pounds is a good choice.  

Now for cold nosed tracks, breeding is EVERYTHING.  Working blood trails of 12 to 36+ hours is an art form.  These are specialist breeds for the most part that are simply geared differently.   Teckels, BMH and others.  These animals are nothing short of amazing to watch in action.  

A word about training... I have been at this game for over three decades and training a dog from a young age is critical.   By training I mean so much more than teaching him to follow a hunk of skin dragged through the woods.  Scent breaks over water, roads, long distance recall, snake aversion and about 50 other items are the skills that will keep a dog safe and allow him to reach his full potential.  
If I had to give a list of the most important 10 items to be achieved with training to first 6 items would be identical- learn to read your dog.  Knowing how your dog reacts when he is sure of the line, when he is struggling and when he is working through a problem is hyper critical.  This cannot possibly be achieved by training solely with actual blood trails.  Simulated blood trails that promote problem solving are the key to a fully trained tracker.  

I have several videos on my YouTube channel keywords: Russell Outdoor Guides that might be helpful.  

Again, get the aforementioned book and consider joining Unitedbloodtrackers.org

That group has some fantastic tracking folks that are always willing to help.

I guess you noticed I didn't really help with your question as to which  breed to choose.  So much goes into the choice.  Choosing a wife is actually much easier.  You only have to look at and live with a woman.  Choosing a great tracking dog is much more complicated.

Offline Terry Lightle

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2016, 09:35:00 AM »
Tracking dogs are legal in Okla BUT MUST BE KEPT ON A LEASH.
Terry
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Offline Broken Arrows

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2016, 09:56:00 AM »
"Jack Russell is worth strong consideration if you're looking for a resilient breed of friend and ally that can ride on the center console to your hunting grounds."


I second the above statment. As a falconer the Jack Russel was my go to dog, they are smater than most of their owners and can be trained to follow hand signels.
Take the long way around.
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Offline Jerry Russell

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2016, 05:48:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by The Nocking Point:
Tracking dogs are legal in Okla BUT MUST BE KEPT ON A LEASH.
Terry
Oklahoma has fairly restrictive and confusing tracking laws so look closely before tracking.  For deer, you need special permission from a DNR ranger for EACH track.  For hogs it is less restrictive depending on if it is deer season or not. The leash restriction for hog tracking also differs from deer depending on various seasons.  Crazy.  

There is a possibility this will all be simplified with a new law next year.

Offline Tim Finley

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2016, 07:53:00 PM »
My son has a beagle that he trained for trailing and she found lots of deer . One that had been shot 4 days before and had gone 1/4 mile she went right to it. Another time she got off the leash at the start and took off the opposite direction the guy said the deer went at the shot, he says what kind of an idiot dog is that . When my son found her she was standing over the guys deer . What kind of an idiot doesn't know which direction the deer ran when he shot it !
   Ken Taylor I have a lot of experience with chesapeakes but not as blood tailing or tracking but they would be my first choice for a dog that could do just about everything .

Online Ryan Rothhaar

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2016, 05:17:00 AM »
As a couple folks already stated you also need to think about what your tracking needs are.  Here in the Midwest it is all 'on leash' and it should be in this part of the country - due to land ownership patterns etc (generally smaller acreage).  Also philosophically I'm only interested in fatally hit deer, not baying live deer.  The fist thing I tell a hunter when we take a call is that we are searching for a carcass not a deer... if the deer is not fatally hit, we won't catch up to him....sometimes this disappoints some "trophy hunter" types.  The reality is no matter what kind of dog you have if he is on leash the handler is the limiting factor, not the dog, so you aren't catching up to a live one anyways unless the deer is in pretty bad shape.

Additionally, on my and my family's wounded deer, as well as a few experienced hunters I've tracked for, we don't have problems.... we know where the hit is, give the deer ample time etc etc, the dog has no problem.... it is when you start taking cold calls for hunters that you find how stupid or inexperienced people can be, and also when you need the power dog.  By "power dog" I mean the combination of cold nose, prey drive, intelligence, and experience to track a deer days after the hit with significant track disruption/disturbance.  The downside to a power dog is that you can spend way too much time on nonfatal hits.... early on we used to... every hunter that calls hit the deer "right in the chest".... then contacts you two days later after him and 6 buddies walked all over and messed up the trail.  A power dog can still track this deer and we went on many a mile long track half the night for no reason before we wised up.  Now we carefully screen calls.  The first red flag is when the hunter says he hit the deer "right in the chest" - I tell them first off that "that isn't the case or we wouldn't be talking right now" - if they get offended then I refuse the call             ;)            .

The "two day old three mile recovery" makes for a good story in a book, but any experienced bowhunter knows that if you act appropriately after a hit that isn't the norm.  Successful recoveries of non-pushed deer from fatal arrow wounds that aren't textbook hits generally involve a 300-400 yard track to a wound bed or several beds, then the deer gets up and travels 50-100 yards and dies.  This characterizes 90%+ of the "hit him too far back" type recoveries we have.

These types of tracks are no-brainers for any decent dog.... and if you only track for yourself or guys you trust these will be the majority of "oops" hits you deal with.  Were I or someone I trust to hit a deer in a very low percentage situation - say high in the back, or in the shoulder with minimum penetration - I'd do the track for a reasonable distance to assure it is a non-fatal hit, then call off.  But I'd know going in that we were just doing our due diligence on a likely non-fatal situation.

In the normal "oops" type fatal hits on deer a power dog isn't necessary - kind of like commuting to work in a Ferrari.  An SUV or a pickup truck might be a better choice for any variety of reasons.

Jerry said it perfectly above: "On lead dogs require situational consideration as well. The very first being how the dog will be used. If the dog is for personal use where most every track is hot (under 8 hours old) the selection of breed is less critical. I could teach a cat to track hot lines, lol. All I can offer for advice here is DO NOT get a big dog. I have run them all in 34 years of handling blood dogs and being dragged through heavy brush by a massive dog is NOT fun. A dog under 40 pounds is a good choice."

He has much more experience than I do - and this is spot on from what I've seen.

My wife and I are way over-dogged for 95% of the tracking we do.  And we have had to learn how to deal with the unknowns on other peoples tracks so we know when to call it "nonfatal" and quit.  I never got the dog originally because I was losing deer I hit myself - I got him because I wanted the "hit him too far back" type shots to be easier to find - and they are - for a decent dog these are 15-30 minute tracks as opposed to 4 hours to a day for a human blood tracker.

Again we love our dog, and would 100% take a teckel of the same blood lines again (and will) because we love the whole package, he is a perfect fit for US, but as I said before he wouldn't be for everyone - teckels, no matter the coat type, and no matter what some breeders say, have some idiosyncrasies.... like any dog breed... that make them a great fit for some folks, but not others.

One thing we need to continually work on (and work harder on than we do) is getting Oskar out and doing things... some teckels might be happy on the couch 10 months a year but our boy wants to HUNT! Additionally I feel a bit guilty that we have the dog ability to do so much more than we do and don't use him for it - our breeder hunts rabbits and 'coon and runs foxes in addition to tracking with her dogs.  The owner of our dogs father (an Austrian hunter) uses his dog for all kinds of hunting, I've seen pictures with recovered roe deer, badgers taken from underground dens, foxes bolted from underground and shot, and ducks retrieved in small water hunting.  Teckels were built for earth work ("dachshund" means "badger dog" in German) - these guys were not "born to track" they were "born to dig" and hunt underground, and virtually nobody, including my wife and I, use them for ground work in the USA.  Such a versatile hunting breed has become "a blood trailing specialist" here, and we in the US have done the breed a bit of a disservice by that.  On the other hand using these dogs for hunting of any kind helps preserve the original (hunting) bloodlines and keeps them from all going the way of the pet and show breeder.

Anyway, sorry for the digression.... all this again to say "Find the right dog for YOU"

                 :)                    

R

Offline LC

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2016, 09:24:00 PM »
I read these posts every single time as I AM A DOG PERSON! I totally agree with Ryan's posts and others. ANY dog can be a "blood" hound on easy or not so easy trails. But if you want a true "blood" tracker listen to the wise ones above.

I've had a mutt who I trained who was great and saved me a lot of time finding deer I'd probably eventually find anyhow. BUT as she got older the drive wasn't there! She got poked with some sticks in the belly and now adays she'd rather just sit on my lap! In fact that's right where she is now! I still love her and thank god the time we've spent together.

But if you truly want a "blood" trailing dog you best follow the good wisdom above!
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Online pdk25

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2016, 10:36:00 AM »
Ryan said:

 "The main thing....get the dog that is right for YOU....just like a bow, one size does NOT fit all. You'll track with him 3 months a year and live with him for 12....get a breed YOU and YOUR family can live with."


I couldn't agree more.  I have dogs that are trained tracking dogs, but for people.  When they retire, the become game tracking dogs, and do a fantastic job.

Offline Tedd

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2016, 11:36:00 AM »
More WHD pics?
 

Offline Tedd

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2016, 11:38:00 AM »
Backpack riding
 

Offline Missouri Sherpa

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2016, 02:10:00 PM »

Vader  


We get to spend some quality time hunting hogs in west Texas every winter.  We are fortunate to host 60 to 80 bow hunters a season and probably get to track down more dead animals in a season than most people do in a lifetime.  We have good results with Jagdterriers.  We have followed some long tracks (miles) and have found live wounded hogs and shorter tracks with dead hogs or just remains from a coyote feed.  If there is a dead hog we feel confident these dogs will find it.

Offline ChuckC

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2016, 02:12:00 PM »
Cute little guys !  Good noses too.  Awesome.
CHuckC

Offline meathead

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2016, 06:19:00 PM »
Ted that's teamwork.  She has trained you well.  Lol

Offline 2nocks

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2016, 07:22:00 PM »
Mr. Fingers, can't you take your dog "hiking" after shooting a deer?

Offline Terry Johnston

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2016, 09:24:00 PM »
I have a 2 year old lab. Labs are big in my part of the world because of there ability to handle water and a possible snake bite better than say a small breed like a dachshund. They are excellent trackers as well as great family dogs. I echo several others the top book is "Tracking dogs for wounded deer" by John Jeanneney. If you do nothing else get a copy of this book. It has been out of print, but just came out with a new edition this fall. In his book John covers breeds really well.  good luck!!

Offline Etter

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2016, 10:17:00 PM »
Ive been very interested in this thread as my next dog is going to be a blood dog. I really was looking at the bavarian mountain hound because they seem perfect for my needs and they are beautiful but Im not going to jump through all the hoops to get one. I just want a dog that will be super friendly with my family (small kids) and have a natural propensity for blood tracking. I was looking into the drahthaars a lot but they seem to have a reputation for agression and Ill not stand for that in a dog. My six year old walker dog growled at my one year old ONCE. She has not made that mistake since.

I also need a dog that would be happy to spend days at a time in hunting camp and share a sleeping bag with me. My walkers have all been great in all these respects but theyre too hot nosed and lack the patience for real blood training

Offline TURKEYFOOTGIRL

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2016, 12:45:00 AM »
Etter. Every Drahthaar ive met is amazing with kids. They are awesome family dogs. The only aggression i have ever seen is on cats foxes coons coyotes etc. I have Drahts and a wirehaired Dachshund. Depends what all you hunt which would be a better fit.
"Life's too short for ugly bows n arrows" Chris B

Offline Gundog68

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2016, 01:13:00 AM »
I had a Dachshund and a german shorthair. Both are good on bloodtrails. I will get a german shorthair again. Also cute with kids. But a decision for a dog is a personal question on space, time, prefering. I think a lot of dog breeds will do the job after a fundamental training.

Offline YosemiteSam

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Re: Blood tracking dog
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2016, 04:12:00 PM »
Do you really need a dog to do your tracking?  I don't doubt you get your fair share of deer.  But you'll have way more time invested in dog care and training than you'd ever spend looking for deer.

FWIW, I know people get attached to breeds but if you're not a commercial operator of a game ranch or professional guide, I'd say forget about breeds.  That dog is probably going to be 99% a pet so if you want a good pet, get a good pet.  Inbred dogs are more difficult as pets, no matter what the breed.  I've had way more success with my mutts than "purebreds" for hunting and as pets.  So much depends on the individual animal that the breeding only becomes relevant in the most extreme cases (commercial).  I've hunted birds with pups from feral dog packs and purebred pointers and springers.  On the whole, I'd take the mutts any day of the week.  A former coworker used to take his pitbull mutt duck hunting and even turkey hunting.  It would retrieve and even sit quietly under a blanket as he called in turkeys (fall "bust 'em up" strategy).  Personally, my last mutt was just as good finding birds as my springer and nothing short of amazing on rabbits (awesome to watch, exciting to hunt with her -- truly a team effort).  She would range further so I'd miss a few.  But she managed to chase more game my way over the years than that springer.  She'd even chase deer my way on occasion.  One time, she almost caught a fawn -- oh the excitement she felt on that one!  She was a good dog and such a contrast to that dumb springer we paid money for.  He was okay but nothing like you'd expect a good hunting dog to be and a royal pain as a pet.

My advice would be to head out to the nearest animal shelter and ask to look at pups from the poorest areas of country near you.  There's something about the local "survival" breeds that can be very well adapted to your area.  Then, at least, if you have a lousy hunting dog, you at least have a good pet.  The odds of getting a good hunting dog are about the same with inbreds but if one doesn't work out, you're stuck with a lousy pet.
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