Heart Shot doe.....Part II

[Onions]

Love the insight from everyone! Very good info! It appears a "no blood" blood trial, with a what seems like a near perfect shot, is possible.
The doe had a entrance hole very similar to "Bisch'" first picture, but the exit was above and behind the leg.

chris <><

[BWallace10327]

Last year I put a 200 grain wensel woodsman through a doe.  It was one of my better shots, straight through the heart. There was a few little drops in snow and light colored grass, but not more then 10 and none bigger than a dime.  She went about 40 yards and went down.  

I think it matters what part of the heat it hit. Left ventricle of the heart pumps to pulmonary circuit (lungs) and the Right ventricle pumps to systemic circuit (everything else).  If the right ventricle is destroyed it will not be able to pump.

 Heart shots are great, but getting both lungs and missing the heart high almost ensures a better blood trail because the left ventricle is pumping blood to lungs that have holes through them, thereby creating a blood trail that "Ray Charles could follow"

[CoachBGriff]

My dad and I ran into this on a doe early this year.

She was shot with a stinger with bleeders, and somehow she stumbled over 100 yards downhill.  There was very little blood.  

I was following tiny specs(which we didn't find at all for the first 50 yards) until I looked up and she was 6 feet in front of me.

Michael, the deer in the pics I posted above was shot with a 1 1/2" wide German Kintetic broadhead. That is wide to me. I can't say for sure why it happens, but it does sometimes, even with big wide heads.

And not being disrespectful to anyone, but I don't buy the "no blood because the heart stopped" theory because with every one that I have had with no blood trail, the chest cavity was completely full of blood when you opened it up.

Bisch

[Bill Carlsen]

Ryan: Way back when you were just a baby I visited with your dad in Ohio. Spent a few days and met Don Assenheimer as well. Your dad told me of a deer that was heart shot and didn't leave any blood. It was he who told me that sometimes the heart, which is a pump, can't pump blood when it is hit. It just stops working. That stops the blood pressure and the animal can run a ways before going down and there  can be little or no blood trail. Fortunately they often drop in sight with such a hit.

[fnshtr]

I think both sides of this "debate" have merit. All the deer I have heart shot left substantial blood trails, and I suppose that has been 20 or so (don't really know).

The "hole in the bag or tank" argument has merit, in my opinion, because the heart and the compartment (body) have been penetrated. While the pump may be effectively stopped, the heart lays low in the body and (the pipes) vascular system can still drain out.

I suppose there may be circumstances related to the location of the penetration, especially considering there are valves in the heart, that may lead to poor or non-existent blood loss from the organ, and therefore, from the body.

I also agree with the theory that "slippage" of the hide in relation to muscle and tissue, might prevent blood from escaping from the body.

But, hey, I'm no expert!!!

[Kopper1013]

I guess I'd love to get a doctors or veterinarian to way in on this. Hahaha way past my understanding of biology but my thoughts now that I've tried to research this: if and that's a big IF due to the amount of nerve endings in the heart that need to be severed to actually stop the heart from beating but if you stop the heart you stop blood flow, yes you will drain some from gravity some plus the blood pressure loss on impact but we all know how fast a whitetail can cover 60-100 yards and with just gravity draining there could be very little left on the ground. I believe this is probably why a lot of the stories above said after impact sight (blood pressure loss) there was very little or no blood to the animal (now gravity draining). There is a reason why they slit throats while the heart still beats. If you slit an animals throat after the heart stops yes you will still get some blood but not as much as if the heart was still beating. I think I'll continue looking in this mostly cause I'm now pretty curious.

[Longbowwally]

Bisch expressed my experience exactly…..

Well, my theory was just that. After looking at a couple dead critters that did not leave a blood trail, that is what I came up with to try to explain it to myself. I really don't know why it happens from time to time, but when it does, it makes me nervous as a cat till I find the dead critter!

Bisch

[Kopper1013]

Well if anyone has experience with animals it's you Bisch hahaha

[bluemoonrising]

Some deer seem to have an xtra layer of fat that I believe helps plug up the hole(s)quickly. I had a couple of deer shot with Simmons and Centaurs do the same as smaller width broad heads.

[ChuckC]

Just an opinion, but I don't think the bag of water idea is even close.  The deer is not a bag of water, nor is the heart.  The heart holds very little blood, it is all inside probably miles of blood vessels, half of which also have valves of sort as antibackflow devices.  It will leak, eventually, but not just pour out.  Stop the fuel pump and the car stops.  Stop the heart, especially with a hole in it, and blood flow stops.

[Kopper1013]

Hey! back again,
 I talked with my local veterinarian and he said if the heart stops pumping pressurized blood flow stops, once the system is opened to the atmosphere (broadhead passing through) pressure will be lost immediately. There will still be some blood loss through artery and heart chambers severed but that will be gravity loss an no wheres near what would be loss if heart continued to beat. This blood loss is much easier to slow with muscles closing up hole or leg moving across holes do to no pressure.

Back to car analogy:
With car running Disconnect the hose going from fuel pump (heart in deer) to gas tank and yes the hose will drain but unless a syphone is created won't empty the gas tank but the car still dies. Now if you where to disconnect the fuel hose between pump and engine the fuel (blood) will continue spraying until tank is empty and car is dead.

I'm finding this very enlightening and look forward to speaking with a doctor next to to cross check information from vet.

[Zwickey-Fever]

Several years ago, I shot a nice 10 pointer right at dark. I shot, the buck took off but stopped, then walked off as if nothing was wrong. So I sat there quiet until it was completely dark. I got down and carefully made my way to the point of impact. I looked & looked and nothing,,,no blood,,,no arrow,,,no sign but the disturbed leaves where the buck launched at the time of the shot. So, not wanting to risk it, I backed out quietly. I made my way home reliving the shot over & over again as we all do in such cases. When I got home and started taking off my hunting clothes I noticed that my boots and lower pant legs was literally covered in blood!! I couldn't believe it because when i was in the darkness of the woods with only a headlamp, I did not see a single sign of blood. It left me puzzled to say the very least. I went back out in the dark with my headlamp to look at my hunting clothes and again, I could not see a thing!! Found out that with certain grades of LED lights turns me color blind. I recovered my buck that night but what a way to find out.
 Another time I hit a doe in heavy snow,,,the blood balled up in the snow and froze covering the redness of the blood. I seen the doe go down but most of the blood was covered in snow.
 These are my two experiences in such a thing,,not saying who's right or wrong,,just sharing my own experience here.

[Onions]

The "saga" continues....I shot another doe tonight. Using the exact same head, as the one before. Of course resharpened to a riducously sharp edge.
Shot was 11 yards, arrow again was a complete pass through. The doe took three bounds, stopped, looked around, then just laid down, for her final rest. Could not ask for a cleaner kill.
At the spot of impact, there was a little bit of blood on the snow, then again some blood on the 3" tree, that she bumped into right after the shot. This doe only travelled 28 yards, after being shot. Maybe if she went farther, a blood trail would have developed. I would think, b/c the entrance was through the front lung, and arrow exit out the bottom of the back lung. She would have eventually blown blood our her nose.
Also, very little blood on her side or the snow under her??
The first doe this season, had blood everywhere, a double lung hit at 14 yards. She travelled 50 or so yards.
2nd doe, a heart shot, 15 yards shot. No blood. She travelled 150 yards
3rd doe, double lung, 11 yard shot. No blood trail. She travelled 28 yards.
All deer shot with the exact same head??

I guess no two blood trials are the same!

chris <><

[fnshtr]

Congrats! All's well that ends well!

[Jmatt1957]

I think it makes a difference if it is shot from a tree stand or off the ground. tree having a exit hole lower, ground holes are horizontal ad generally higher o the body. just my $.o2 worth

[mgf]

I guess there are a lot of variables and most of us probably don't know what half of them are.

I only shot one this year. 45# bow, Zwickey Eskilite head at about 15 yards. I counted 16 paces to where I founf the arrow.

I hit a little forward of where I aimed. The arrow went in just above the point of the shoulder and exited low on the chest in front of the far leg/shoulder.

The buck staggered just a few steps and went down just a few steps from my stand.

My only interest in the blood trail was curiosity and finding the arrow. It actually took a little while to find the arrow because there was blood everyplace...even places where the deer wasn't. The trees and ground were covered in blood in all directions.

The arrow passed through the front of both lungs and about the front 1/3 or more of both lungs was gone...they were all over the ground and the arrow.

You'd have though I hit that deer with a grenade or something.

That's one reason I was so determined to find the arrow. A few minutes before the buck showed up I heard my neighbor blasting away with a shotgun. Looking at the deer I thought somebody must have shotguned him to death and he somehow ran over here to die. LOL I wasn't going to believe I did it until I found the arrow.

[Tajue17]

I always thought the double lung shot was a better option over the heart shot,,, my experience was that heart shot deer not only ran further up to 100yds,, a few I tracked where blowing out such a fine spray it was tricky to track I'm talking looking high onto the saplings.  

double lung deer seem to drop within 40yds in a normal situation and the blood is nice and frothy much easier to follow.

plus trying to hit that heart I may just hit that shoulder so I'll be looking 2" back and 3" higher on a broadside,,,, I guess quartering away the heart is in the path but I want that lung too!

[Flingblade]

Hey Chris,  I had a similar circumstance a few years back on public land near you.  Shot a buck right before dark.  Found a few drops of blood a few yards from the shot and then no more.  Not a drop.  He only went about 70 yards but I didn't find him till the next morning due to lack of blood and thick cover.  When I field dressed him I found I had shoot him through the heart.  No exit hole on mine though.  The arrow backed out and dropped a few yards from the shot.  Can't remember what head I was using but it was probably a Magnus 2 blade.  If I could pick my shot it would be double lung leaving the heart alone.
Gary