Article on bear spray

[The Night Stalker]

Great read, I was planning on carrying the magnum pepper spray for our upcoming moose hunt.
Not sure of the firearm yet. I like Steve's idea of a 10mm to fit my small hands.

[jcar315]

Appreciate the expertise shared. Thanks guys

[Archie]

I carry a .44 Super Blackhawk, but that 10mm sounds like a pretty good option...  a lot quicker to handle, and more shots to boot.

[Steve H.]

TNS, try the G20 SF. Other 10mm available includes Sig and a few 1911s including Dan Wesson and Rock Island Armory.

CC: I use a stock G20 barrel with my hardcast, I'm not shooting a lot of them to lead it up. I have a Lonewolf .40 conversion barrel for the bulk of my practice.

I hear of a lot of people, including AK guides carrying G20s.

[cch]

Thanks Steve, I was wondering about shooting the hard cast out of mine. I will have to pick up a box and see how they shoot.

[Kevin Dill]

I think I understand most advocates of the semi-auto for bear defense like the lower recoil and higher shot capacity offered. I agree with those 2 things...preferred.

I'd probably already be carrying a Glock except I've been brainwashed to understand a .44 mag round is bear-ly adequate in defensive situations with big bears. 454 Casull, .460, .500...that's some real knockdown power.

Buffalo Bore shows heavy 10mm rounds leaving a Glock 20 barrel at about 1325 fps and yielding 650-750 ft/lb of energy.

The heavy .44 mag goes out at basically the same speed but carries 1250 ft/lb energy. That's a lot more impact per accurate round...all things being equal.

I don't argue for or against either round. Is there something I'm unaware of in ballistics for the 10mm? The multi-shot capability is unarguable, but in a one-shot situation is 700 ft/lb enough?

[Phillip Fields]

No way that I would carry my 10mm as a defense handgun in grizzly/brown bear country. I understand he allure of lower recoil/high capacity...but, I've seen how fast a griz can cover ground. If he comes at you on the open tundra you may get off multiple shots, but if he comes at you from cover you're only going to get off one maybe two shots.

I am just as accurate with the first shot out of my .454 Casull as I am with my 10mm and almost as fast with my second shot with the .454. Since I'm probably only going to get one or two shots into the bear, I'd rather hit him with the 1500 ft/lbs out of my .454 than the 700 ft/lbs out of my 10mm.

[Phillip Fields]

Small correction on my post above. I just checked and I'm getting 1800 ft/lbs of energy out of the load I'm using in my .454 Csull

[paradocs]

Just food for thought, and not to disparage the pistoleros out there.  I've hunted with handguns during firearms season exclusively for over 25 years with good success....454 in a Freedom Arms and heavy .44 Special in a custom Blackhawk, all open sights, and I shoot alot.  And I'm not in bear country save the occasional blackie, but have been around plenty of large beasties intent on mischief. I have little confidence in stopping a bear charge with either gun, would carry both revolver and spray if forced, but if my hide was on the line, give me a quick handling carbine with ghost ring sights every time. I can get off 3 aimed shots with my 356 Winchester (250 gr, 2700 ft-lb) for every one with the 454. And if target is moving? No contest; carbine wins.  That said, bullet construction is everything with the handguns...hardcast or Punch bullet for me.

[Kevin Dill]

Well here is one of the ultimate defensive bear-stoppers. It's my Marlin 1895 customized by Wild West Guns. It eats .45-70 ammo and .457 WWG rounds with equal appetite. It's a great gun but for a bowhunter it's use is extremely limited. No way can it be carried (while bowhunting) for quick defense. Great camp gun. Great for going into risky places like carcasses, meat caches and such. Good backup weapon, but not much use if it isn't carried or takes more than 10 seconds to bring into action...if you are carrying a bow and hunting with a backpack. If I somehow knew I was going to have to take on a mean bear, this is 100% the gun I would want. Or maybe Steve H's .458 SOCOM.....

[paradocs]

Now you're talkin'...

[Roy from Pa]

I'll bet that kicks like a mule..  

[Kevin Dill]

Originally posted by Roy from Pa:
I'll bet that kicks like a mule..      

My wife shoots it with standard .45-70 rounds and she is anything but tough. The ported barrel plus better Pachmayr Decelerator pad helps immensely. It's a puppy until you jump way up in bullet weight and energy.

[Roy from Pa]

Ah, I see the ports now, That would help for sure. But like you said, a higher weight bullet and powder load would let ya know it's got's some punch.

[dnovo]

I always enjoy following these gun vs spray threads about bear. Now truthfully at this point in my life I'm probably not going to be bowhunting in a grizzly area again. I haven't be practicing with it lately because of that but I used to carry a 460 Smith and Wesson revolver. It puts out some serious energy.My one load has 1900 ft pounds. But I've shot it enough to know that it's a last resort, but I felt that I could deploy it faster and carry easier than a long gun. I wouldn't be leaving it in camp cause it was a pain to drag thought the brush.

[chinook907]

I haven't seen the article but would have to agree with what was quoted from the author; my observation has been that folks uncomfortable with firearms generally only carry spray.

I know a couple guys personally that have killed Brown bears with handguns,before they tore them up.

But yeah it's an uncertain proposition with anything less than say a hand grenade.

I only carry if I'm hunting Brown bears or if I figure I'll be near them while working or hunting something else.

For salmon stream surveys it's a 12gauge 870, marine magnum, loaded with Brenneke  green slugs. It's what a friend carries also for problem Brown bear calls and he's had to kill a bunch.  Even though we all know that Ithaca makes "the best pump goin".

A friend on Kodiak who does the same problem bear stuff carries a BAR in 338,you don't hear about that combo much but its a good one.

I've got a marlin in 45-70 also but that's for hikes, fishing, and leaving in the boat or camp.

When bowhunting I carried a Ruger blackhawk in 41 mag for a long time. The last couple I carried a Glock 20. It carries well, ok power, big trigger guard that allows my trigger finger in well even with my bow shooting glove on, which is important. But mines been problematic. I've got it working now but mentally I can't trust it.
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Backordered a limited build super blackhawk in 480 (5 shot), it came in about when this thread started.  Here's my new hog leg.
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I guide some for Brown bears and interior grizzlies and carry a bolt action in 338. More and more guides are carrying .416 Rugers for coastal bears. It's an impressive cartridge.

I've taken and helped teach a bear safety & shooting class a number of times.  The range part involves 12gauge pumps and a bear target that comes at you from 20 yards as fast as the guy on the 4 wheeler at the other end of the tow line can work thru the gears. You try and distract the shooter to add pressure. The gun has an empty chamber and is slung on the shoulder. Even knowing they are going to shoot, after a couple practice trys, maybe 6 or 7 out of 10 shooters get one good round in the target, 1 or 2 get a couple good ones, and maybe 1 or 2 get 3 in the target. Think about it.
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A big 'old bear tree.  That's a full size widow.

 
You're holding the bow; what's in your wallet (I mean, on your hip)?
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And that's about as long winded as I get. Sorry about that.

[beendare]

Enjoyed your post Chinook.

"10MM big enough?"

I don't think there is enough data on a 10MM against the big bears...we probably won't know for many years.
 I know if I was buying a pistol now for bears it would be the SW329PD in .44mag. That thing is a feather...and it shoots well.

The one essential thing you hear from every charge, "He was on me quick"  definitely worth training with your chosen defense weapon.

Fast and accurate can be done....anybody watch the Staged pistol competitions on TV? Those guys can shoot lightning fast and accurate. I know my speeds went way up when drawing and dryfiring twice a week [everyday before going to Kodiak!]...then taking it out to the ranch regularly.

 The best advice I've been given on shooting fast and accurate was from Rob Lathum at one of the shows. He says to put a death grip on the gun and practice holding it very tight and steady while you are jerking that trigger. No way to squeeze the trigger in those speed shoots he says....its all about holding the pistol tight, FWIW, It helped me.

[Steve H.]

cch, oh yeah, I have Underwood, I know Buffalo Bore loads them too but haven't tried any from my gun but my buddy has from his, iirc.

[chinook907]

Thanks beendare.

I'm not so much sold on the 10mm as I like the packages it comes in. I'll likely sell my glock 20, and get a sig, Dan wesson, old S&W 1066, or maybe even another glock 20 or 29.

Here's a pic of my 34 year old .41. I'll always have that too. I got the leather holster from Dick McIntyre's Frontier sporting goods in the mid-80's before they closed. A Cordura one I had prior had failed.  I think it was Dick that got the St Charles/Fred Bear crowd into the Little Delta country ?
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Meant to say also, these are just my choices and experiences. Obviously there's more than one right approach.

[Steve H.]

Where the 10mm shines is I can draw it and have multiple shots out of the barrel before all but the best revolver guy will have cleared leather. They aren't cumbersome. Remember 3000+ grains of lead at the immediate ready. Every hit probably buys you a couple more trigger pulls. An angry little hornet!

Go back and reread K Dill's post on scenarios. It probably ain't going to end well on a surprised bear at super close range unless they choose to bluff charge. Its the other scenarios that we have a smidgeon of control that we are attempting to mitigate!

Of course a carbine or long gun is better but who can truly, effectively hunt with a bow AND carry a long gun? (no one). Well, if I get my act together and remind myself how to use photo bucket, maybe I'll show an exception to my statement.

T-Mac, let me polish your feed ramp for you, I'll get 'er humming!