Archers Paradox

[grouseshooter002]

Does anyone know or has run into the two guys on YouTube that have become archery experts overnight? This has to do with their explanation of archers paradox and I've tried to explain that this phenomenon happens as a result of the fingers loosing the string and it happens with all recurve and longbows that are drawn and loosed with the archers fingers. What is archers paradox to you?

Regards,
Grouse

[ron w]

I'm not familiar with those fellas on you tube but I have seen slo-mo film of the paradox in action. I believe it happens even when there is a mechanical release. It always amazes me the arrows don't self destruct. Hope you are well Mr. Rick.........  

[grouseshooter002]

Thank you Mr. Ron,
These guys just make me scratch my head.

I'm doing much better than I was last summer. I missed not seeing and shooting with you and Ken.
Please have a "Merry Christmas" Ron and wish Ken and Charlie the same.

Regards,
Rick

[kat]

Glad to hear you are feeling better Rick.
We need to get together and fling some arrows.

[Orion]

One dictionary definition of paradox is, " a statement (or observation) that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true. "

Keep in mind that this term was coined during the day of the self bow, which didn't have arrow shelves or if they did they were very shallow.  Thus, an arrow placed on the string would be pointed way to the left (for a right handed shooter). One would think that the arrow would shoot to the left, yet when shot, it would hit the target.

That's the paradox, the archer's paradox.  How can an arrow that points so far off of center strike a target straight in front of the bow.  And yet it does.  It's a paradox.  Now, of course, through high speed photography, we know it does so because, if it is spined correctly, the arrow bends around the riser when it is shot.  

Nowadays, a lot of folks mistakenly apply the word paradox to mean the bending or flexing of the arrow as it passes the bow riser.  That's incorrect.  The arrow does not paradox around the bow.  It flexes or bends around the bow when shot.  The fact that it flexes around the riser explains the archer's paradox, i.e., why the arrow, which appears to be lined up off target, actually hits the target.  

On a bow cut past center in which the arrow can be made to bisect the string, as in most compounds shot with a trigger, there is no archer's paradox. Of course, the arrow still flexes horizontally and vertically when shot.

[ChuckC]

This kinda begs more discussion, especially from folks smarter than me.  Your arrow, when on the string but not drawn, points in a different direction than it does when drawn full.  You point the arrow, essentially in front of the bow, and it starts out that way, but it needs to gyrate to follow that path.  That is where reasonable spine comes into play.  Almost any arrow will launch.  It takes a particular arrow to be able to do the paradox in a manner that works for the archer.    I think this gyration is compounded by the release using fingers.

[grouseshooter002]

Orion,
Your are correct, but I'm not talking about a compound. The archers fingers are what induces paradox and the arrow is in paradox until the arrow clears the bow. After this point dynamic spine takes over and the arrow fishtales toward the target. Try and explain this to Greg at Archery 101 on FaceBook and his friend Jeff of "The Nocking Point".

Regards,
Rick [Grouse]

[Orion]

Archer's paradox is the apparent (initially) unexplainable discrepancy between where the arrow appears to be pointed and where it actually goes. It has nothing to do with the mechanics of the shot. Archer's paradox is a conclusion drawn from a static observation.  

As one draws the arrow, I suppose one could say the arrow stays in paradox, because it will continue to point to the left of the riser as it is drawn, and common sense would still suggest that the arrow will strike left of the target as a result.  Yet it doesn't because of the flexing of the arrow around the riser. That's the paradox.  The arrow goes straight when we expect it not to.  Why?  Because the arrow flexes around the riser.  It does not paradox around the riser.  

The archer's fingers do not induce paradox. They contribute to the bending of the arrow. The archer's fingers at release kick the rear of the arrow a bit to the left (for a right hand shooter). That, plus the weight of the bow string pushing forward on the arrow nock and the slightly off center orientation of the arrow initially cause the arrow to begin flexing to clear the bow riser and reorient itself toward the target through the fishtailing action.

[Orion]

Here's a definition of Archer's paradox from Wikipedia that provides some historical context.

"The term archer's paradox refers to the phenomenon of an arrow traveling in the direction it is pointed at full draw, when it seems that the arrow would have to pass through the starting position it was in before being drawn, where it was pointed to the side of the target. The bending of the arrow when released is the explanation for why the paradox occurs and should not be confused with the paradox itself. Flexing of the arrow when shot from a modern 'centre shot' bow is still present and is caused by a variety of factors, mainly the way the string is deflected from the fingers as the arrow is released.

The term was first used by E.J. Rendtroff in 1913,[1] and as understanding was gained about the arrow flexing out of the way of the bow as it is shot (as first filmed by Clarence Hickman)[2][3] and then experiencing oscillating back-and-forth bending as it travels toward the target,[4] this dynamic flexing has incorrectly become a common usage of the term, causing misunderstanding by those only familiar with modern target bows, which being 'centre shot' do not actually show any paradoxical behaviour as the arrow is always pointing visually along its line of flight.[5][6][7]"

[kenneth butler]

The word paradox actually has nothing to do with bending or flexing. It means a strange happening that does something besides what it looks like it should. Archers paradox means the arrow is pointed one way but goes another. The word has been used and mis-used to describe various happenings when shooting an arrow. It is all good just keep bending those bows.   Ken

A fellow in a near by town did some slow mo vids of his own.  He found that even with a caliper release the arrow still bends into the bow and then around it if the bow is not center shot.   I don't buy that the arrow is pointing to the left and it flies to right, that would take a very soft arrow.  When sighting down the arrow an arrow that recovers quickly recovers on the line it was pointed and does hide behind the bow,   The argument always turns in to speculative nothing, because an arrow that does go that far left does not fly very nice and is usually considered to be too light a spine.

[longbow fanatic 1]

Fast forward this YouTube video to 2:51 seconds and you will see a close up of archers paradox.

 

[Bowwild]

There are lots of myths in archery (and everything else for that matter).  I won't go here though because this thread isn't the place.

I like the paradox discussion above.  The word was hijacked (long ago) by folks who misunderstood its definition. I'm happy to admit that I understand it better now thanks to Orion and a couple more above.Thanks!

Unrelated to this thread, but last Saturday night I searched the web for a couple of hours trying to find some answers to paper tuning.  I expected, even though improperly named, that archer's paradox discussions would help. I believe paper tuning has worked for me for decades, all kinds of bows and fingers and release aids.  However, I found NO competent explanation why it should or should not. The paradox for me was that I did this research to "feel better" and ended up with a nice case of vertigo (weird but for real, I was sick for the next 2 days)!

If we remove the archer as a form factor (use a perfectly "formed" archery or a machine) Paper tuning either works or it doesn't.  All I found were opinions. Nothing backed up with physics.

I thought I had it for a few moments. That a properly turned set-up allows the fletched end of the arrow to "follow" in sync shaft nodes. But, after looking at several videos that didn't seem to be correct, unless NONE of the videos I viewed involved properly tuned setups.

[Chain2]

Archer's Paradox is why we are all here. It's part of the mystery of shooting a Traditional bow and achieving perfect arrow flight. In this world of an answer for everything and immediate gratification, Archer's Paradox keeps us striving for essentially the unattainable. It keeps us going.
 The technical definition is what the other guys said.

[highlow]

I'm with Pavan on this. When I shoot, it looks to me that my arrow is pointing directly at the target, not to the left. So the argument that it's pointed left and then corrects to the right in order to hit the target doesn't hold up. If that were true, then all my shots would impact right.

To me, the so-called "archers paradox" speaks more to a properly tuned arrow being able to bend around the riser as it leaves the string and then re-bend to continue on a straight path to the target. The need to bend properly arises from the fact that the string returns to the center of the bow as opposed to following the arrow on its trajectory. An improperly spined arrow will not bend, or oscillate properly in order to achieve the desired clearance of the riser. Too stiff, arrow impacts one way-too weak and it impacts another.

I''m not a physicist or scientist in any shape or form so you can take my opinion for what it's worth.

[Orion]

Pavan, Highlow.  Before you draw the arrow it is pointed to the left unless your bow is cut past center.  Of course, when you aim it, you line it up with the target.  But, in relation to the bow, it is still pointing to the left.  The reason you hit what you're shooting at is because the arrow bends around the riser to go where you're pointing it.

The Wikipedia definition sort of describes the phenomenon in reverse, i.e., from full draw, rather than from the arrow's static position on the string. Or maybe my description is in reverse.  Regardless, same result.

"The term archer's paradox refers to the phenomenon of an arrow traveling in the direction it is pointed at full draw, when it seems that the arrow would have to pass through the starting position it was in before being drawn, where it was pointed to the side of the target. The bending of the arrow when released is the explanation for why the paradox occurs and should not be confused with the paradox itself. "

[snag]

[highlow]

Orion. Isn't that what I said?

[Bud B.]

Originally posted by pavan:
A fellow in a near by town did some slow mo vids of his own.  He found that even with a caliper release the arrow still bends into the bow and then around it if the bow is not center shot.   I don't buy that the arrow is pointing to the left and it flies to right, that would take a very soft arrow.  When sighting down the arrow an arrow that recovers quickly recovers on the line it was pointed and does hide behind the bow,   The argument always turns in to speculative nothing, because an arrow that does go that far left does not fly very nice and is usually considered to be too light a spine.

Yup.


With a selfbow, recurve, compound, close to center or way off center, I always point my arrow at the target, not to the right or left. As the drawn arrow comes closer to brace before leaving the string the angle from sight line changes from a sighted arrow to the position of a relaxed string where the point of the arrow is farther away from the bow's centerline. The spine needs to allow the released arrow to bend around that relaxed brace angle to get the arrow to where you point the arrow as drawn and sighted at your anchor point. Your fingers will have a large part of that, or not, depending on your release smoothness.

Muddy or not, if your arrow ain't bending correctly for your setup and release, you will be off left or right of your drawn sightline.

[Bladepeek]

Probably the only thing that would satisfy the majority of the posters on this thread is a slo-mo picture of a perfectly tuned arrow, shot with a release from a bow cut past-center so the arrow is aligned with the string and center of bow.

I would certainly be interested in watching it, but I believe we would still see a flexing of the arrow. All that force on the rear arrow working against the heavy point out front is still going to cause the arrow to bend. It can't bend toward the center of the bow, and can't bend downward because of the shelf. It would probably flex outward, away from the side plate, or upward away from the shelf, or some angle in between. Sure would make an interesting video.