Tradtional bow only season.

[Bowwild]

I don't know if it still exists but Idaho used to have a "recurve/longbow" pre-season in some smaller areas.  I heard it was because an agency commissioner/board member was a fan of those types of bows.  These might have been newly opened hunting areas where to restrict bow types didn't take something away from another group. Solved the problem Kevin discusses above.

A lot of folks would be surprised, for better or worse, how few comments to an agency can sometimes result in a regulation change. A letter is always better than an e-mail by the way.  

It blows my mind that a county or two in West Virginia are archery-only over the entire county!  Pretty cool but I don't know how they suffer the slings and arrows to keep it.

[[email protected]]

Well, let me as an Oregonian give you the "facts" of the matter.

Oregon does not have a special trad season.  We do have a special...read exclusive area that is trad only for deer.  No elk in that area.

The unit is hard to get to, in the south east part of the state.  You really have to want to be there.  Darn difficult for a week-end hunt.  And you should have a very capable rig with four wheel drive and tires meant for dealing with lava rock.  You are pretty much on your own if things should go "wrong".

We have another unit (30+- day season) where trad hunters can hunt the full length of the season and modern hunters may only hunt the last two weeks.

It's difficult though not impossible to draw two deer tags.  Unlike states that have "too" many deer our herds are really suffering.  Mule deer populations are, at best, so-so.  Blacktail deer are fighting slip hair disease and crappy habitat.  When we use to be a logging state we had plenty of new growth for them.  Now we hardly log at all, except for private dirt.

Directly from a high ranking ODFW official, "modern bowhunters, with regularity, take animals in excess of 100 yards".

Ultimately the ODFW is faced with reducing bow hunting opportunities in one form or another.  A draw system, reducing length, limiting tags, etc.

An interesting part of this matrix is most modern bowhunters don't seem to realize as their success increase there will soon be more restrictions.  Its as if there is no relationship between harvest rates and bag limits.

Bob

[Michael Arnette]

Originally posted by [email protected]:

An interesting part of this matrix is most modern bowhunters don't seem to realize as their success increase there will soon be more restrictions.  Its as if there is no relationship between harvest rates and bag limits.

Bob

Yep, that's the issue here

[KSdan]

Thanks for weighing in Bob.

[meathead]

I love the idea but there are a lot of different variables depending on what part of the country you live.  In the Midwest the opportunity is probably past.  The commercial interests have taken hold.  It is big business and we as traditional bowhunters can't compete with it.  The same thing has happened to muzzleloader seasons.  These interests are convincing people that all of the junk they are selling is needed.  We need to work on promoting traditional bowhunting in a positive manner and maybe grow our own.    

 

Originally posted by Bowwild:


To do otherwise would mean (in my mind)  I'd be agreeing with those who say my son and my grandson's should stay home while I go afield with my recurve."

Roy I am going to pick on you for this one. If there was a traditional season why wouldn't your son and grandson be able to participate?  All they would need is a license and a bow and arrow.

[TSP]

What typically determines the level of success re harvest rates for deer are 1) habitat quality, 2.) public access, 3.) season set-up, 4.) weather (in some states more than others), and 5.) level of field presence of the managing entity (including public education, research and enforcement efforts).  The type of archery equipment used rates pretty low on the totem pole, or if it does rate high in any given state there's likely something very wrong with one or more of the other factors.  Whether talking about season length, dedicated areas, equipment definitions or technology, when it comes to archery none of these items come close to the five main items noted above.  Those would be the areas I'd first look to for answers re a struggling deer herd...or a perceived overharvest situation.  

This doesn't mean that a closer look at some of the archery-related issues already mentioned shouldn't be undertaken/examined as part of the research/field presence effort, but don't kid yourself into believing that today's game managers assign any more than a passing level of importance towards archery as a 'harvest tool'.  The objective in that area (special interest seasons) is primarily to pacify the divergent interests that want their own piece if the pie (bowhunting orgs, muzzleloader clubs, crossbow proponents, and yes even anti-hunting groups).  

Secondly, based on the collective actions and image of today's 'traditional archers' (many of whom regularly employ high-level technology, materials and techniques in their pursuit of a traditional ideal that some of them won't even admit exists), the chance of state game managers giving a listen to the traditional argument is slim to none.  That's not because it wouldn't be nice if they did, it's because realistically the 'simple' aspects of this kind of archery have all but disappeared in favor of ILF rigs, carbon arrows, 40 yard hunting shots and routine bragging of how 'effective' our 'traditional' gear can be.  One cannot have his cake and eat it too...either traditional is hard, or it isn't.  The trouble is as a group we can't agree on which direction we want it to go with it.

When it comes to resolving a problem it's first necessary to be realistic and determine what the causal factors actually are...and not place too much emphasis on any one potential solution along the way.

[Jon Stewart]

Be careful what you wish for.  Sometimes  we are our own worst enemy.

[Bowwild]

bobhelle knife,
I would be highly suspect of the "100 yard kill regularity comment" by the OR high official.  I can an archery "expert" making such a claim to a high official and the high official believing it. I don't.  I don't even think the crossbow boys can do it with regularity because of range measuring, even with a range finder.  

Nathan, they don't hunt with recurves or longbows, so I'd be going without them unless they were willing/able to use recurves.  But, you are certainly correct and I'm not if you are suggesting (?) that they could participate, they'd just have to adopt the legal equipment.

Regarding another post. I hunt with recurves and aluminum, carbon or aluminum/carbon arrows. Except for the hybrid arrow, all of this stuff was available in the 1960's when I started with recurves.

There definitely is recognition among eastern wildlife managers of archery being an effective management tool, especially in areas where firearms aren't allowed or prudent.  

However, for my 30 years in the business the "recreation days" represented by archers (100,000 bowhunters hunting an average of 23 days each in KY for example = 2.3 million recreation days).  On Contrast 170,000 firearms deer hunters hunting 3 days is 510,000 recreation days.  

Sure harvest is the more important outcome but rec days are important because this also equates to support for the agency.  In KY when I was working, the local university did an annual survey of citizen attitudes towards the wildlife agency. We were always in the 90-95% approval range.

When I worked west of the Mississippi(Kansas) the approval rating was much, much lower. I thought it was very unfair because the staff weren't any less professional.  Western folks have a different understanding about habitat management than in the east.  Unfair is probably the wrong word, the agency needed to do a better job of informing the public in Kansas.  

Finally, I've worked with agencies in almost every state in one way or the other.  They are not all the same. I am the least impressed with those who know the least about what makes the hunter and hunting tick. I believe a few have already written the hunter off as important in the future of wildlife conservation.   As I've read every post in this thread I've noted where the poster hails from.

[beachbowhunter]

Originally posted by Red Beastmaster:
Tedd,

If PA did have a traditional only season every current compounder or x-gun user would run out the week before to buy a cheap recurve so they could join in. A trad only season will never happen and I would not support it. Unfortunately, the traditional mindset is foreign to the masses.

Change PA to any other state and the same would be true...

[Zwickey-Fever]

Originally posted by pavan:
I think the entire month of October in Iowa should traditional archery only, with no overlapping youth or muzzleloader seasons.

X's2!! It would never happen but I would second that in a second my friend!

[Longtoke]

My only bow hunting partner shoots a wheel bow, so that would be sad for me.

  There are not enough bow hunters in my neck of the woods to make one bit of difference,  other places I can see how it would be an issue.

[[email protected]]

Bowwild,

He spends plenty of time in the field checking tags, licenses and in general talking with hunters of all classes. His information is from the "horses mouth".  And from his co-workers.

Antidotal evidence is always suspect, as it should be.  But there does come a time, when given enough of the same answers it does become more factual.

What's in it for him to misrepresent the "truth"?

I have never hunted "back east" where I understand 20ish yard shots are more the norm.  That is not so true here.

You tube has in the past, had plenty of very long distance kills.  Take a look.

My personal experience has been, when talking with modern archers, is most of them are not afraid of 70 yard plus shots.  With range finders, some arrow speeds at 350 +-, 100 yard shots are very doable.  Unfortunately.

Perhaps this long distance shooting is more a western based fact than in other parts of the continent.

Bob

[Kevin Dill]

This isn't a new topic of course. Trad folks have longed for their own seasons for decades. I think it will take a near apocalyptic-type event to get any state to take away days from the general archery season and give them to a trad-only season. The states which are in the most trouble with game populations would potentially have the best...but still long...shot at it.

Count me amongst those who believe we'd see a large percentage of avid modern hunters invest in enough trad gear so they could keep hunting; especially if it is a prime period to be afield.

[newhouse114]

Bob, in some ways I thing the trad guys are cutting their own throats with the exclusive trad area we have. I believe the problem is that since it is an unlimited permit hunt, and folks can hunt with trad gear for a week there, and then go somewhere else and hunt with wheels. If the state would make the Trout Creeks an only opportunity hunt, I think it would really cut down on the number of hunters out there, and weed out the "sometime" trad hunters. I always hate to ask for more restriction, but in this case it might be a boon to the die hard trad hunter.

[Bowwild]

Bob,
I don't suggest the high official misrepresents the truth. Instead I offer that too often people will hear a few comments and then pass them on as an important trend.  Sometimes the receiver of the information influences, through no fault or encouragement of their own,  the transmission. (I.e. Is told something the teller thinks they want to hear or already know.)

To answer your question, nothing is in it for him (the high official).  In fact, quite the opposite. The livelihood of many FW employees depends upon citizen support of hunting.  

But, someone who wants to disparage modern archers will pass on such behavior as the "norm". Heard it and seen it for many years.  I've heard FW Commission members comment on the ethics of bowhunters based upon the actions of a few bad apples.  I wouldn't want such information as 100-yard shot regularity passed on any more than sharing stories of guys who never recover their animals, as the "norm" for bowhunters.  It is no more normal for the average bowhunter than it is for the average rifle-toter.

[[email protected]]

Newhouse,
I absolutely agree with you and am surprised that the ODFW hasn't made it an only opportunity deer. Or, perhaps combine that with a late season opportunity.

Ours paths should have crossed some where along the line.  That is a great buck you've taken.  Given all the snow I am very concerned about winter die off.  Remember 92-93?

Bowwild...I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the frequency of 100 yarders.  No worries here and I am sure on your side as well.

I think most states have "designated" hunts for every weapon imaginable.  They just can't create a new, different season...no room to put them on the calendar.  So to do any thing different mostly creates a win-lose situation.  And that never works very well.

Bob

[ChuckC]

I tried to say it in my earlier post, but it may have come out poorly.  I do that at times.  I don't think, in this day and age, that we can have a meaningful trad only hunt.  Sure, we can have a week or so tucked somewhere.  But so what ?

We will be sharing the woods.  My concern... what I want.... is that they keep track of who does what.  Computerized tallies and check ins can make this easy.  

I think there is very little doubt that  compounders are very much more proficient at killing animals than trad folks, for what ever reason.  Crossbow hunters even more so.  I can't even imagine that this bowgun whatever it is is gonna fare less.  

In my state, according to my math ( I have NEVER seen the DNR do this math for the public, although I am certain they are very aware) the crossbow folks, in the last year tallied, had a better success rate than the gun folks.

Keep the tallies separate.  When (not if) the day comes that the seasons need to be shortened because the herd is being over plucked, I would like the data to show that trad folks are not the cause, and maybe they will let us keep the seasons we have.
CHuckC

[newhouse114]

I remember hearing about the die off in '92-'93 but I was still living in Alaska at the time so I didn't experience it personally. Most of my Oregon hunting has been on the coast. The buck in my avatar is a Trout Creek buck from my first try at mulies. I must say that I miss hunting moose, caribou, and sheep, but the blacktail deer and elk hunting keeps me fairly happy!

[Michael Arnette]

Originally posted by newhouse114:
Bob, in some ways I thing the trad guys are cutting their own throats with the exclusive trad area we have. I believe the problem is that since it is an unlimited permit hunt, and folks can hunt with trad gear for a week there, and then go somewhere else and hunt with wheels. If the state would make the Trout Creeks an only opportunity hunt, I think it would really cut down on the number of hunters out there, and weed out the "sometime" trad hunters. I always hate to ask for more restriction, but in this case it might be a boon to the die hard trad hunter.

Oh darn, that's not even a trad only hunt, I bet a lot of guys sign up just to hunt with her wheelbarrow and never actually take a vantage of the tradbow week?

[newhouse114]

Michael, the Trout Creek Mts are a trad only geographical area. You have to draw (guaranteed) for the permit, but you can participate in any other archery hunt that is general season in the state. If you hunt the Trouts, you hunt trad! Except for the 50 rifle tags they give out for October.