UEFOC

[Cari-bow]

JimB was wondering when you were going to come on this thread. I thought you might have an even higher FOC. The cut on your feathers does it make them quieter? Not that 3" are very loud to begin with.

[Sam McMichael]

I have never delved into FOC, so know almost nothing about it. Is there a tipping point, at which you get diminishing returns from further increase.

I guess one of the reasons FOC never turned my crank is that I believe it is unnecessary for  white tail hunting when using my hunting weight bows, all from 50 - 56#. Any point weight that tunes well seems to be quite adequate. Am I missing something? Assuming my thoughts are adequate for deer, what if I move up to hogs and other heavy frame game? I can see that it could then become significant to me. I shoot only wood arrows. Also, I don't enjoy tinkering, so unless the probability of significant enhanced performance is high, it would still not interest me. You guys that have a lot of experience with EFOC can give skeptics like me a lot of useful info to ponder. I guess what I really want to know is if you can accurately quantify the degree of performance improvement you have experienced and at what % of FOC these best results happened. Thanks.

[Jackpine Boyz]

A link to my 750 gr arrow is in this post.

 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=001184;p=1#000002
 
My arrow shoots 160 fps out of my longbow at 62#.
My 550 gr arrow shoots 180 fps.  For my hunting ranges the 20 fps isn't huge given increased KE and Momentum.  Dr Ashby felt that the "bone breaking" threshold was 650 grain area for heavy boned animals.
The 750 is set up for elk, maybe overkill for whitetail.  However this Year I hit a 4-5 year old deer high in the shoulder, had a good 8" of arrow penetration.  Unfortunately I rushed in to soon and jumped him given the amount of blood.
 Never found his second bed so must of one lunged him as I tracked him a good ways before loosing the trail.  He's dead I am quite sure because he is well known on my cameras and 3 other properties, and hasn't been seen since.  

Long post but if it wasn't for my stupidity and pushing the deer to soon I am convinced he'd still be laying in that first bed dead as opposed to wounded only with a lighter arrow.

I would be curious to hear thoughts on sightsee's post.  Finding the sweet spot is easier said than done.

My bows seem to like the 10-12 grain per pound range.  My foc's are in the 18-22% range on my bows typically.

An accurate shooting arrow though is still most important.

[Jackpine Boyz]

Following the original post, I am only providing my 2 experiences where I've seen the potential.  Not really looking to debate either.  I'm not really not too far out of the realm of the a standard 10 gpi rule many trad guys use anyways.

I too am curious about Jim B's fletching performance.  They look cool.

[sticksnstones]

Jim, few questions if you don't mind:
1) are those cap wraps?
2) using a burner to get that shape?
3) what is the gray band at the nock?

I think I know the answers, but I'd like to know for sure. BTW, those look great!
Thom

[Hermon]

My way of figuring FOC is this.  Balance point measurement divided by arrow length measurement, then subtract .5 (1/2 arrow length)

29" arrow (valley of nock to back of point) with a balance point 22" from valley of nock would be:
22/29 = .7586
.7586 minus .5= .2586 or 25.86%

Just seems a little easier to my simple mind.

[katman]

35%, way to go Jim B

Sam, no it is not necessary for whitetails imo, some of us love to tinker. As long as overall arrow weight and durability stays reasonable I can't find anything wrong with increased foc. Agree totally a good arrow tune is most important.

Per Sam, I guess what I really want to know is if you can accurately quantify the degree of performance improvement you have experienced and at what % of FOC these best results happened.

Sam I have not gone thru the process of quantifying improvements, after reading Dr. Ashby's studies I believe increased foc >20%  is beneficial as this is where he saw penetration gains begin in his studies.

Jackpine, yep a 10-12 gpp arrow, >20%foc and excellent tune would be my perfect arrow for North America.

Hermon, yes you can do the math or just plug in arrow length and balance point into Rob's calculator,  http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000089

[JimB]

Abe,I'm not sure my hearing is good enough to discern if they are quieter but they seem quiet to me.I should add,I acquired a 56" Caribow Wolverine and really like it.I could go higher on the FOC if I were willing to give up the wrap,which I really like and I'm positive I could go to a 2 1/2" AA fletch,without a hitch.

sticksnstones,they are Onestringer wraps that I cut to 4".I do burn the fletch.The gray band is 1/4" Easton Platinum footing.

I've started delving in this,in 2008 and have have built several dozen sets of arrows,most having more FOC than the one before.Once I got in the mid 20's,I started seeing a difference in stability,penetration and wind deflection.With each jump in FOC,these aspects were more apparent.This current set of arrows is the best of all.

Ashby has pointed out many times that this does also apply to bad hits on North American big game.A bad hit on a whitetail can involve 1/2" thick bone,similar in thickness to a water buffalo rib.I don't want to make bad hits and FOC etc is not a substitute for practicing and good shot placement,but an arrow setup that drastically increases penetration,without pulling an extra pound of bow weight,is a boon for me.

At 67,I'm not going to be able to increase bow weight any more.My current 50# setups,now penetrate better than my former 60# plus bows did with normal FOC,9-10 GPP arrows.They are also more stable in high winds which are always an issue,here in MT,especially in the open country where antelope,mule deer and whitetails are hunted.

I have tree stands where an elk,big black bear,moose or other big game may show up as likely as deer and I'd never hesitate to shoot at the largest of them,with my current arrows out of 50-53# bows and expect two holes but am trying for pass throughs on all shots.I believe,as Fred Bear did,that pass throughs can drastically shorten retrieval distances.

[sticksnstones]

Thanks for the reply Jim. I'm still doing the hand cut feathers, but was thinking of setting up a burner since I'll need to do 3 dozen arrows in the next two months. I'd think the burner would be way faster and more consistent.

Personally I've given up on nock collars and wraps, just extra time and it moves the balance point in the wrong direction. I gotta say your arrows sure do look nice compared to mine!
Thanks for sharing!
Thom

[Cari-bow]

Jim B
I don't want to give up on the wraps either. What do your nock collars weight?

[larry f]

Hey guys how are you getting such a high FOC, I am shooting one of Abe's longbows @49 with a FMJ  300 gr Tuffheads with a 100 grain insert. Arrows are 714 gr, and my foc is about 26. By the way the Car-Bow slynx I just bought is a beauty and a blast to shoot. I have only shoot recurves for the past 30 years. My arrows are 29.5 from throat of nock to end of shaft.

[Friend]

larry f....

Not to far in the distant past, there would be post of trad guys taking up to 2 years to develop such an arrow.

Today, the opportunity to achieve hi end range EFOC and possibly Ultra EFOC has been simplified by the introduction of much lower gpi stiffer arrows.

 AN actual ex...HV350 shaft...28.5" shaft length...100 gn brass insert...300 gn BH... arrow tuned to of a 51# bow weighs in total 611 gns and have 31.5% FOC.

[G Hutch]

My results are the same as Scotts And Jims. I too am 67 years old and shoot 52 lbs. My arrows are 28.250  300 gr. point 100 gr. brass insert total weight 642 gr. GT ENTRADA 7.4 gr per inch 31.85 UEFOC. They are the most forgiving best wind bucking best penetrating  arrow I have shot in 46 years of bow hunting. Something magical happens when you reach 30% front of center. I get as good of penetration as I did when I shot 68 lbs. They are also more arrow dynamic and shoot flatter than the same weight arrow with less foc. TRY IT YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.

[G Hutch]

The above arrow is a 400 spine arrow

[larry f]

Thanks for the information on other shafts but what is an GT Entrada and a HV 350 shafts and where do you guys get them. One more question what do you use to cut the carbon shafts. The archery shop that I use to go to is closed down, just like a lot of other small retailers.

[Cari-bow]

Larry F
When you have arrows that are under 7gr per inch it's much easier to get UEFOC.

JimB what do the nock collars weight on those arrows.I'm still using super glue and braid fishing line for my nock collars.

[larry f]

Thanks for the information,I will have to buy some different shafts in order to get UEFOC.

[-Zor]

I'm about to order a new bow in the 55-60lb range at my draw length, 28". I'm thinking about using the Victory Rip XV shafts, but I don't see them in the Stu Miller calculator. I'm planning on using 250 grain screw in broadheads and then whatever insert/component combination gets me close to 10 grains per pound. This would put me in between the two setups Dennis502 is currently using on bows with poundage on either side of my new bow. My questions are which spine should I start with .300 or .350? And what are the tuning problems concerning efoc/uefoc arrows?

[katman]

http://www.tuffhead.com/education/tuning%20the%20efoc%20shaft.html
Good read on tuning uefoc.

I would say the 350 spine for your draw length zor.

[-Zor]

Thanks Katman, that was most helpful.