Woodie vs carbon penetration when hunting

[dnovo]

I'm a diehard wood arrow guy, but I'm not too proud to admit that I believe carbons will get better penetration than my woods. They're smaller diameter and slicker surface than woods. Plus RC has more experience killing stuff, especially hogs, than 99% of guys here. I would believe in his real world experiences shooting critters

[Hatrick]

I've made, love, and shot a lot of deer with wood arrows. That said, I've shot a lot with carbon as well. I will only speak for my own 40+ years of experience and say the same weight shaft, same broadhead, both tuned to fly right, the carbon will out penetrate the wood. Will it make a difference in your hunting situation? That's up to you.

I'll still continue to use wood on occasion for deer but for hogs you should listen to RC. I don't know of anyone on here who could claim to have shot more hogs (and probably more deer) than Robert Carter.

[John146]

Originally posted by RC:
How many people replying on this thread have shot a heavy animal with both arrows? I don`t mean a deer,they are made purty lite. You can claim carbons are not "trad" I can see that line of thinking but don`t doubt the ability to penetrate they have.A deers chest is not wide at all. 8" penetration will get it done. On a big hog that will get you one lung.
   From shooting big hogs with low poundage bows MYSELF I can tell you from experience the wood will not penetrate like a carbon. My bows are tuned and I shoot 5.5 feathers. I also shoot 550 grain plus arrows at big pigs.
   I hear about peoples experience with broadheads , arrows and poundage and they will talk about "a" animal they took that it worked out on. worked great. I can tell you I have killed and been in the trailing of other hunters maybe 500 animals taken with a stickbow. A big pig is a whole nuther animal. When you go up in poundage its different but 55 and less ,arrow weight and material matters on big stuff.
   I have killed well over a 100 deer and pigs probably more since switching to carbon and never had any meat ruined. Shooting 35/55 and 15/35 carbons they will bend a whole lot before breaking.
  Yesterday at Fort stewart I shot a 175 lb boar with a 52@27 Dave Johnson Hill style bow with a 590 grain arrow. Shooting a grizzly broadhead and got a complete pass through. The last few weeks a friend of mine shot 3 different big boars with a well tuned setup with wood arrows and got less than 4" penetration on all the unrecovered hogs. He is a great shot and put the arrow in the center of the ribs forward. I expect he has killed over 150 deer and pigs with a bow or near that.When after big pigs he has a carbon in the quiver now. He is a wood arrow fanatic and it pains him to agree with me.lol He killed a big hog after those three he recovered with a carbon and got the broadhead to the other side of the pig with a 45 lb bow.
  shoot what you want but know the facts. RC

This is factual information. Same results I experienced as well. And if you contact bone it is amplified.

[Learner]

Wow, I think that I may have unintentionally started a civil war!    

But seriously, as a newbie, I'm very grateful for the replies from both sides of the issue.

   

In my refrigerator and freezer is I don't know how many pounds of sausage and chops and other cuts of Texas hogs.  All shot by a friend that goes to Texas every winter and shoots three with wood arrows and aluminum arrows that i made for him and his 47 at 27 longbow.  I asked him about his penetration.  He said the 12 that he has gotten so far have been either pass throughs or the arrow sticking out both sides.   All shot with Eskimos and Grizzly 125 grain broadheads.  Shot timing and shot placement may be on his side, he is very good at both.

[Michael Arnette]

A skinny carbon arrow will out penetrate wood of the same weight, speed, and distance by a longshot. I don't think it is purely a matter of diameter, recovery, or energy return but I think it is all of these put together.

That being said, unless you were hunting keep Buffalo or giant hogs (which are really really tough to get penetration on) I'd shoot whatever feels best to you.

Me: I love my carbons!

[Shadowhnter]

"The last few weeks a friend of mine shot 3 different big boars with a well tuned setup with wood arrows and got less than 4" penetration on all the unrecovered hogs."

I was wondering,  how did you guys figure out the wood arrows only got 4" penetration,  if they went unrecovered?

[RC]

[Shadowhnter]

I see, thanks for your quick response.RC, I went back and found where you already stated how you knew. To Be honest, I had skipped through some of the arguments and didnt see it. I was seriously wanting to know, and not trying to be annoying. I find your accounts interesting.

[Dendy Cromer]

[Dendy Cromer]

[K.S.TRAPPER]

I respect RC opinion very much and listen when he posts, he never fails to post fine pictures of great animals and is well proven on here for many years. I would share a camp with the man anytime anywhere.

My opinions and post earlier are based on elk size animals and down with wood arrows but no pigs, I've had no problems with complete pass throughs or close to it on all of them. Many of the arrows have harvested more then one animal many times out of my longbows.

Now pigs,  theve never really interested me that much but my brothers place in NE Texas is getting hit pretty hard the last couple years by them and I will be going down on a fishing trip soon and plan on trying to find some to shoot at with my wood arrows so we will see. I shot carbons out of a recurve for a while during rehabilation of a rebuilt shoulder but the just never felt right so I went back to wood as soon as I could. Never ever regretted it not once.

Tracy

[Dendy Cromer]

No. Wood does not penetrate as well as carbon. That's the only thing that I find that wood doesn't have going for it. I love wood arrows. That's all I've shot and hunted with for the past six or seven years. All else being equal- weight, tune, broadhead, and bow poundage- carbon will out-penetrate wood. I admit it, I HATE to, but I admit it.
 I'm the person RC's talking about, pull up a chair.
My younger brother has a hog problem on his farm. Given permission to hunt them after deer season closed, I went after them. I HAVE NEVER HAD ANY PENETRATION PROBLEMS WITH WOOD ARROWS ON DEER AND SMALLER(<150LB.)PIGS. I've killed several of both. My arrows are always over 550gr.from bows 45-52lbs. Broadheads vary-I like woodsmans and two-blade deltas.
Day one- I crept in on two big boars fighting over a hot sow. I was within 10 yards of both. As the smaller of the two turned broadside, I let him have it. My arrow struck him in the side about two ribs back and He simply grunted loudly and WALKED OFF. I heard my arrow break as he hit the swamp. I heard him fighting again five minutes later as I was standing there holding 25" of a 29" arrow. I knew better than to even look for him, I did no real damage. Two days later I was in a creek bottom, same situation. A fight was happening and I got the wind right and crept over to it. At no more than 15 yards A big boar was standing on the side of the creek bank and I drew and hit him-hard, right behind his shoulder-midline of his body.That shield stopped my arrow cold. It's like shooting through the side-wall of a large tractor tire or something. Anyway, the pig made a tight circle and trotted off, breaking my arrow as he left. Again, I was left with most of my arrow and a non-lethal arrow. That happened one more time before I got tired of creeping to within spitting distance of these big hogs and making a good shot and having nothing to show for it. So- I changed up a little bit. I went home and tuned my 45# recurve to shoot a 3555 gt blem with 300gr. in the front. I had them shooting like bullets out of that recurve. I went back to the farm the following Friday evening and within 30 minutes a got on a pretty nice stinky old boar. As he came up out of the thicket and into the pine trees I shot him at twelve yards or so, right in the ribs behind the shoulder. The carbon arrow dug in to the fletchings and the Grizzly broadhead stuck out the far side shoulder a pretty good ways. He died in a creek 75 yards away. Nothing changed about the whole situation except for the arrow. And the boar was just a tad smaller than the previous ones. I love my wooden arrows, but the fact is that carbon just penetrates better. And RC is right, and I don't like to admit it. LOL. So, shoot your wooden arrows and have fun, man. They will serve you well and there's nothing not to like about them. People say "wooden arrows will kill anything on this continent", and that is true. Carbons just do a better job on bigger boars that have that thick, nasty shield. And that, my friends, is what happened.

[Shadowhnter]

Awesome, thanks for sharing!

[Dendy Cromer]

[NY Yankee]

OK I have never shot carbons, probably never will. I have had a wood arrow go in one side and exit the other side. Ive seen countless posts on archery forums of guys defending wood arrows and explaining how they had full penetration on whatever critter they had shot. First, I refuse to agree that a fraction of an inch in diameter is going to keep an arrow from penetrating and animal with mostly soft tissues, if you avoid the heavy bones and have a sharp head. Second, the finish on an arrow is only going to make a difference when you shoot one of the high-compression targets or very dense 3D targets. Remember, most targets these days are designed to stop very high speed arrows, not traditional arrows. Sand bags are not the same either, nor is ballistic gel. Try them both in a hay bale. Much easier arrow removal and no target burn. A deer's innards just do not grab and hold an arrow shaft like a foam target does. As said above, 45 pound bows and cedar arrows have been killing stuff for decades or more.  Don't sweat it.

[tecum-tha]

Sounds more like EFOC versus 15% FOC on the hogs.
In combination with a I believe small difference in diameter at least for the regular 5/16" carbon arrow.
I bet a tail tapered and compressed from 11/32" to 5/16" Sitka Spruce with 300 grain Tuffhead tuned to the bow would deliver almost identical results.
Or a light stiff bamboo shaft with heavy broadhead would do the same.
I think it has much more to do with FOC (which is super easy to achieve with carbons).
If the ferule of the broadheads is larger than the diameter of the shaft, there will be much less friction period.

No matter what the shaft that is pushing it, I find it very difficult to measure the penetration of a three to one broadhead.   Quite often finding it after shooting an animal is even more difficult. Getting the arrow directly behind the head and having a head that tracks straight through at the hit, will enhance penetration.  I have seen some carbons act very finicky with the power level variations, i have some that will only shoot out of one bow, while other bows that are very close, being some with a little less cast and others with more cast, they do not like at all.  While at the same time I have wood arrows that are spot on with all of the above bows.  it coud be a draw length factor or a Hill style longbow thing, but the recurve that I got them for did not like them what ever I did.  Last year I helped a kid tune his carbons, he showed up with a tool box full of things to try.  It took a bit of doing, but when all was done, he found that he hated full length arrows.  His shooting development was with near net bop arrows.

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by RC:
How many people replying on this thread have shot a heavy animal with both arrows? I don`t mean a deer,they are made purty lite. You can claim carbons are not "trad" I can see that line of thinking but don`t doubt the ability to penetrate they have.A deers chest is not wide at all. 8" penetration will get it done. On a big hog that will get you one lung.
   From shooting big hogs with low poundage bows MYSELF I can tell you from experience the wood will not penetrate like a carbon. My bows are tuned and I shoot 5.5 feathers. I also shoot 550 grain plus arrows at big pigs.
   I hear about peoples experience with broadheads , arrows and poundage and they will talk about "a" animal they took that it worked out on. worked great. I can tell you I have killed and been in the trailing of other hunters maybe 500 animals taken with a stickbow. A big pig is a whole nuther animal. When you go up in poundage its different but 55 and less ,arrow weight and material matters on big stuff.
   I have killed well over a 100 deer and pigs probably more since switching to carbon and never had any meat ruined. Shooting 35/55 and 15/35 carbons they will bend a whole lot before breaking.
  Yesterday at Fort stewart I shot a 175 lb boar with a 52@27 Dave Johnson Hill style bow with a 590 grain arrow. Shooting a grizzly broadhead and got a complete pass through. The last few weeks a friend of mine shot 3 different big boars with a well tuned setup with wood arrows and got less than 4" penetration on all the unrecovered hogs. He is a great shot and put the arrow in the center of the ribs forward. I expect he has killed over 150 deer and pigs with a bow or near that.When after big pigs he has a carbon in the quiver now. He is a wood arrow fanatic and it pains him to agree with me.lol He killed a big hog after those three he recovered with a carbon and got the broadhead to the other side of the pig with a 45 lb bow.
  shoot what you want but know the facts. RC

I can see where RC's results make sense.  The higher FOC's generally used with carbons help penetration, but I suspect the big difference is penetration through the shield on a big boar.  That shield is hard and tough and is going to add considerable drag and the carbons smaller diameter and rigidity would be a big asset.  I've killed one large boar with a wood arrow and a 200 gr Grizzly Instinct 3-blade head.  Just past broadside, penetration was through the shield and to the far side, but did not exit.  Bow was a Toelke Whip, 50 @ 26; arrow was Doug Fir about 600 gr.

 

Hill spent considerable time working out the needs to shoot through the shield, power plus weight certainly, but the broadhead choice is a big part of that.  Two blade versus three, 3 to 1 versus 2 to 1.  I would bet the type of edge put on the head can make a difference as well.  Not all substances cut the same.