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Author Topic: instinctive tuning  (Read 857 times)

Offline DJ Hardy

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2017, 06:38:00 PM »
It does not really matter how much feather you have. If you are right handed shooting a overly stiff shaft it will strike left on aiming point and viceversa for a two week shaft.
They may be flying straight but not straight to the poi.

Now if your only shooting 20yards and have bareshafted to 15 you most likely will never see any difference shooting instinctive.  Back up to 25-30 yes and things start changing.
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Online Trenton G.

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2017, 11:12:00 PM »
So going along with this, I shoot instinctively with a canted bow. Everything I have read says to bareshaft tune with my bow vertical. What confuses me is that if I shoot vertical with a shaft, it will fly stiff, but when I cant the bow the way I normally do, it flies dead straight. Should I still go with the vertical tuning or tune it to my shooting style?

Offline forestdweller

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2017, 01:21:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DJ Hardy:
It does not really matter how much feather you have. If you are right handed shooting a overly stiff shaft it will strike left on aiming point and viceversa for a two week shaft.
They may be flying straight but not straight to the poi.

Now if your only shooting 20yards and have bareshafted to 15 you most likely will never see any difference shooting instinctive.  Back up to 25-30 yes and things start changing.
Do you have any evidence showing that the POI will change? I have shot overlystiff arrows, weak arrows, and completely tuned arrows and with 4" feather in a tight helical they all hit the same mark at any distance.

I'm not trying to be rude I'm just curious as to if you have any videos that have been posted that show POI changing with arrows that are not tuned properly even when adequately fletched.

I can post some videos showing that POI does not change if you wish. Jeff Kav. post a video of him shooting differently spined arrows out of his bow and they all grouped together and he's an instinctive snap shooter.

Offline forestdweller

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2017, 01:29:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Trenton G.:
So going along with this, I shoot instinctively with a canted bow. Everything I have read says to bareshaft tune with my bow vertical. What confuses me is that if I shoot vertical with a shaft, it will fly stiff, but when I cant the bow the way I normally do, it flies dead straight. Should I still go with the vertical tuning or tune it to my shooting style?
Tune the bow the way you shoot it. The reason why your arrows fly more straight when you cant the bow is because you are changing the angle at which paradox occurs (your arrow will bend more upwards when you cant it).

As an extreme example if you shot the bow completely horizontal the paradox would be up and down instead of left to right so an overly stiff arrow would impact high instead of to the left.

Online MnFn

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2017, 02:10:00 PM »
I think Ken Beck from Black Widow has posted a few videos. I found one, I think I just googled it.

He was showing another archer shooting various spines of arrows and said they will tail off left, right, or go straight and that is one way of selecting shaft spine.
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Online McDave

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2017, 02:15:00 PM »
Yes, I have evidence that the POI will change, but when you're dealing with fletched arrows, the POI may change in unexpected ways.  When shooting a bare shaft (RH) a too stiff shaft will predictably impact to the left of the desired POI, while a too weak shaft will impact to the right (absent deflection off the strike plate).  If the same physics held for a fletched shaft, one would expect that increasing stiffness would move the POI further to the left, and vice versa.  However, my own experience, Rick Welch's experience, Fred Asbell's experience, and the experience of a local bowyer, indicates that the opposite is often the case: increasing the spine of a fletched arrow will often move the POI to the right.

I first heard of this while shooting in a tournament with the local bowyer many years ago.  I was consistently hitting left, and told him I was thinking of trying some weaker arrows.  He suggested that I try stiffer arrows first.  At first, I thought I had mis-heard him, or that he was not thinking clearly about what was happening.  But on further questioning, it became clear that he was saying exactly what he meant: decreasing my point weight moved the POI several inches to the right.  I observed Rick Welch do the same thing for a student in a class several years later, with the same result.  Fred Asbell says essentially the same thing on p. 78 of his book, Instinctive Shooting.  For years I thought that was a typo in his book, but he wrote what he intended to write.

The reason a bare shaft impacts to the right if it is underspined is because it leaves the bow in a nock left position, such that the shaft is pointed to the right of the intended POI.  Since the crabwise orientation is not corrected by fletches, the shaft continues to move to the right in flight.

The reason a fletched underspined shaft often impacts to the left of the intended POI is because flexing causes the shaft itself to move sideways to the left on being shot.  The flexing also causes the shaft to point to the right of the POI, the same as a bare shaft would.  Without fletches to correct the orientation of the shaft, a bare shaft continues in the direction it is pointed and impacts to the right of the POI.  If fletches correct the orientation of the shaft too quickly, however, the arrow is still several inches to the left of the desired flight path and will impact to the left of the desired POI.  Stiffening the arrow causes it to be deflected less to the left on being shot, and thus can move the POI to the right.

As you can see, the actual POI of the arrow is the result of several interacting factors: the amount of sideways deflection of the shaft, the angle the shaft is pointing, and how quickly the fletches correct the flight path of the arrow.  So while shooting a stiffer shaft won't always move the POI of a fletched arrow to the right, it will sometimes, and is a useful thing to know.
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Offline nhbuck1

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2017, 05:15:00 PM »
so if i shoot the bow canted the bareshaft should not go nock right or nock left out of the bow? i always shoot canted so if i tune how i shoot i should tune canted and adjust if the shaft kicks nock left or right and adjust that way? everyone says tune the bow vertical
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Online McDave

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2017, 08:06:00 PM »
There are a lot of different ways to tune that work, so you can kind of take your pick.  If you decide to tune with the bow canted, you have to interpret the results based on the degrees you cant.  For example, if you cant 15 degrees, and the bare shaft is inclined toward 4:00, that is roughly the equivalent of the bare shaft pointing at 3:00 if you hold the bow vertical.  However you hold the bow, if the bare shaft points right back at you, with very little tilt, then it is tuned!
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Offline katman

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2017, 08:12:00 PM »
You can tune with a cant to the bow. But the interpretation of impact off center will be different. Cant with bow top tip at 2 oclock position and a weak shaft with the proper nock height will be low and right.

I have observed some shoot and put pressure on the grip differently when they cant vs verticle, that will also effect your tune.
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Offline forestdweller

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2017, 08:25:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by McDave:
Yes, I have evidence that the POI will change, but when you're dealing with fletched arrows, the POI may change in unexpected ways.  When shooting a bare shaft (RH) a too stiff shaft will predictably impact to the left of the desired POI, while a too weak shaft will impact to the right (absent deflection off the strike plate).  If the same physics held for a fletched shaft, one would expect that increasing stiffness would move the POI further to the left, and vice versa.  However, my own experience, Rick Welch's experience, Fred Asbell's experience, and the experience of a local bowyer, indicates that the opposite is often the case: increasing the spine of a fletched arrow will often move the POI to the right.

I first heard of this while shooting in a tournament with the local bowyer many years ago.  I was consistently hitting left, and told him I was thinking of trying some weaker arrows.  He suggested that I try stiffer arrows first.  At first, I thought I had mis-heard him, or that he was not thinking clearly about what was happening.  But on further questioning, it became clear that he was saying exactly what he meant: decreasing my point weight moved the POI several inches to the right.  I observed Rick Welch do the same thing for a student in a class several years later, with the same result.  Fred Asbell says essentially the same thing on p. 78 of his book, Instinctive Shooting.  For years I thought that was a typo in his book, but he wrote what he intended to write.

The reason a bare shaft impacts to the right if it is underspined is because it leaves the bow in a nock left position, such that the shaft is pointed to the right of the intended POI.  Since the crabwise orientation is not corrected by fletches, the shaft continues to move to the right in flight.

The reason a fletched underspined shaft often impacts to the left of the intended POI is because flexing causes the shaft itself to move sideways to the left on being shot.  The flexing also causes the shaft to point to the right of the POI, the same as a bare shaft would.  Without fletches to correct the orientation of the shaft, a bare shaft continues in the direction it is pointed and impacts to the right of the POI.  If fletches correct the orientation of the shaft too quickly, however, the arrow is still several inches to the left of the desired flight path and will impact to the left of the desired POI.  Stiffening the arrow causes it to be deflected less to the left on being shot, and thus can move the POI to the right.

As you can see, the actual POI of the arrow is the result of several interacting factors: the amount of sideways deflection of the shaft, the angle the shaft is pointing, and how quickly the fletches correct the flight path of the arrow.  So while shooting a stiffer shaft won't always move the POI of a fletched arrow to the right, it will sometimes, and is a useful thing to know.
All of those guys you mentioned out shoot me by a long shot but for the heck of it today I shot 1 additional arrow that is very stiff and at 22 paces the overly stiff arrow with a 125 grain point grouped with the other arrow and they were both touching.

Within 15 paces it was the same thing as well. I could detect no difference in arrow flight or grouping with the overly stiff arrow.

For reference I'm shooting a 43# longbow that is not cut to center and is tuned to shoot .670 spine carbon arrows with a 145 grain point at 29.5". The overly stiff arrows were .500 spine with a 125 grain point at 29.5".

Howard Hill was known to take his spectators arrows at exhibitions and place them all within the bullseye of a target (I'm not sure of the size of the bulleye).

I think arrow tuning boils down to fletching size. I know for a fact that if I used 2" feathers on the overly stiff arrows they would impact far left within 25 or so paces.

The closer to perfect you are bareshaft tuned the less fletching you need. But the less fletching you use the less forgiving your set up will be.

Here's a video of Jeff Kav. grouping different spined arrows together.

 

The only idea that I have is that maybe the archers you mentioned use the minimal amount of fletching they can get away with such as 2" or 3" feathers?

Online McDave

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2017, 09:49:00 PM »
In my post, I was talking about 3-4" difference in POI at 20-30 yards, so I'm not sure there would be much difference in POI at 5-7 yards.  Jeff's video was taken of 20 yard shots, and was impressive.  Not sure how to explain his tight grouping of significantly differently spined arrows, since I've seen the opposite.  In my post, all arrows were fletched with either 4" or 5" feathers.
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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2017, 10:08:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by McDave:
In my post, I was talking about 3-4" difference in POI at 20-30 yards, so I'm not sure there would be much difference in POI at 5-7 yards.  Jeff's video was taken of 20 yard shots, and was impressive.  Not sure how to explain his tight grouping of significantly differently spined arrows, since I've seen the opposite.  In my post, all arrows were fletched with either 4" or 5" feathers.
I would bet money that Jeff K's form is better than 99% of folks who shoot a stickbow! A well tuned arrow shot with perfect form will perform just as it is intended to. A not so well tuned arrow shot with perfect form will not be off too bad.

A well tuned arrow with some form inconsistencies from shot to shot will only be off a little bit, while a not so well tuned arrow with form inconsistencies from shot to shot will be all over the place.

Bisch

Offline forestdweller

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2017, 10:58:00 PM »
I agree Bisch. I noticed that the stiff arrow was a lot less forgiving. If I short drawed it or my release was really off it would impact left (stiff).

Offline YosemiteSam

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2017, 01:14:00 PM »
On my recurve that is cut a little past center, I only notice spine variations when shooting out past 30 yards.  With my selfbows (especially if shooting off the knuckle), I'll notice variations at less than half that distance.

McDave - I wonder if the left POI from a weak arrow has to with FOC.  If there isn't much FOC, perhaps the fletching is pulling the point back in line with itself instead of following behind the point.  Just a guess.
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Offline DanielB89

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2017, 02:48:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by McDave:
Yes, I have evidence that the POI will change, but when you're dealing with fletched arrows, the POI may change in unexpected ways.  When shooting a bare shaft (RH) a too stiff shaft will predictably impact to the left of the desired POI, while a too weak shaft will impact to the right (absent deflection off the strike plate).  If the same physics held for a fletched shaft, one would expect that increasing stiffness would move the POI further to the left, and vice versa.  However, my own experience, Rick Welch's experience, Fred Asbell's experience, and the experience of a local bowyer, indicates that the opposite is often the case: increasing the spine of a fletched arrow will often move the POI to the right.

This right here is GOLDEN!!!  
 

A fletched and bareshaft arrow shoots the exact opposite.  IT look me a long time to figure this out, but once I did, tuning got a lot easier.  I used to bareshaft, paper tune, etc, but now I just have a bunch of different length arrows to try out and adjust spine and length accordingly.  I will tell you that a 1" length difference in shaft makes a huge difference in flight.  

The best money a man could spend in buy 1/2 dozen of all the spines you think you may need, in my postion would be 500, 400, and 350 and cut them all in 1/2" incriments keeping in mind your draw length and the shortest allowed arrow for broadhead clearance.  

For example, a 32" arrow, I would have a full length, 31.5, 31, 30.5, 30 and that's as short as I can go due to draw.  Shoot all them and weed out the "bad ones" and this will give me a very very good starting point.
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Offline DanielB89

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Re: instinctive tuning
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2017, 02:53:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by YosemiteSam:
On my recurve that is cut a little past center, I only notice spine variations when shooting out past 30 yards.  With my selfbows (especially if shooting off the knuckle), I'll notice variations at less than half that distance.

McDave - I wonder if the left POI from a weak arrow has to with FOC.  If there isn't much FOC, perhaps the fletching is pulling the point back in line with itself instead of following behind the point.  Just a guess.
Imo, I don't think it has anything to do with FOC, but everything to do with what is steering the arrow.  By adding the feathers, you are moving the steerage to the back to the arrow.  I.e., if your arrows are real weak, which way would your feathers(nock end) kick out?  For a RH shooter, they would kick to the left, just like with a bare shaft, but With a fletched shaft, the feathers guide the arrow and will make the POI to the left(which is opposite of what a bareshaft will do).  With a bare shaft, the whole shaft is what guides the arrow(the wind hitting the arrow and the angle making it steer whichever way the arrow is angling).
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