3 under tiller negative or even?

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by katman:
Michael, in the pic it appears you are putting the majority of your finger pressure on the long and ring finger so more pressure well below the nock point like a fixed crawl requiring a high nock point to compensate. I shoot a negative tiller with a fixed crawl on my ILF rig since it is quieter and smoother and uses a lower nocking point.

Sending a link to another site for a good read on tiller to you and Mcdave.

send it to me too!  

[BenBow]

The other thing that can cause the bottom limb to kick out is a high wrist grip and or pressure on the lower palm of the hand. This puts additional stress on the bottom limb. I learned to shoot bone on bone to get a steady hold and this put more stress on the lower limb. The tillering rule of thumb needs to be thrown out period! Unfortunately most bowyers go by these old rules of thumb and some become violent when told it's junk.

[Roy from Pa]

Yupper,  Ben. I tiller for equal limb timing, which generaly results in a zero or 1/8th negative tiller.

The degree at which tiller makes a difference for an individual, depends on how blocked his fingers are on the string or not.  Some three under shooters put more load on the ring finger which, of course, puts more load on the bottom limb.  The advantage of finding the right balance in fingers and limb is that tuning does not need to take extra leaps to get arrow flight.  As example, with an even tillered bow, a three under shooter here found that with the addition of an arrow rest only needs to have his bottom arrow nock set 1/8" above the arrow rest to get perfect flight.  He shoots with more load on his index finger than his ring finger as well.  Of course, I also tell guys to try shooting with a bow sight before starting off on all kinds different forms.  I have seen individuals have excellent gains using the shoot through sights, like the DAS system.

[BenBow]

Rick****** suggests adding an additional piece of leather under the index finger on a tab to take pressure off the lower fingers. (Funny he must not be liked around here)

[rraming]

I think if you have found a tiller that works well for you, you should stay with it. I have bought and sold bows that I didn't like the tiller. I have also had the same bows, same model all have different tillers - strange but true.

I like about 1/8" positive.

[Mark R]

If you can time the limbs to the way you shoot that is best, what Roy said, but not always easy.Even if the tiller looks good once you let the string go the limbs might not return the same, but that gets far to technical for me. Look at a Yumi bow, top limb is much longer but if timed right it works fine.I also think a bow with a little positive or negative tiller can be easily tuned no matter how you shoot.

[katman]

Finger pressure on string and pressure point on grip will also effect limb timming.

send it to me too!  [Wink] Done.

[Michael Arnette]

I believe you are right about the pressure in my 3rd finger/ring finger

[YosemiteSam]

Originally posted by pavan:
The degree at which tiller makes a difference for an individual, depends on how blocked his fingers are on the string or not.  Some three under shooters put more load on the ring finger which, of course, puts more load on the bottom limb.  The advantage of finding the right balance in fingers and limb is that tuning does not need to take extra leaps to get arrow flight.  As example, with an even tillered bow, a three under shooter here found that with the addition of an arrow rest only needs to have his bottom arrow nock set 1/8" above the arrow rest to get perfect flight.  He shoots with more load on his index finger than his ring finger as well.  Of course, I also tell guys to try shooting with a bow sight before starting off on all kinds different forms.  I have seen individuals have excellent gains using the shoot through sights, like the DAS system.

Thank you for this insight.  I've always wondered why my selfbows shoot better with most of the pressure on my index finger.  The difference in consistency is huge.  Didn't know why but just did what worked.  Makes a little more sense now.

[Bowjunkie]

Benbow, insightful posts. Where I disagree is with your assessment of the bow hand fulcrum and virtual bottom limb length.

The static fulcrum (the balance point before we begin the draw) is the center of the bow.

Then during the draw, the dynamic fulcrum under the bow hand follows equilibrium, which is dictated by bow design, tiller, and our holds on bow and string. In my bows, the dynamic fulcrum stays between bow center and string fulcrum. It would only be below center if the bottom limb was much too strong and I was greatly heeling the grip. Not my idea of a balanced draw.

So mine moves slightly 'up' from bow center toward the string hand fulcrum, which are less than an inch apart, making the virtual bottom limb length longer at full draw than it was, not shorter.

How far it(dynamic fulcrum) slides in any particular setup, and whether or how much it changes the lengths of the virtual limbs/levers, depends on many factors, some already mentioned in this thread.

You can situate or reveal the position of the fulcrum, and virtual limb lengths, by placing something under the handle so that it creates a single point of contact, and move it around until the bow balances on it as it's drawn. If not where you want it, adjust limb strength. Of course, while pulling the string how it will be pulled when shot.

[katman]

I would love to be able to post a link to a great read on tiller but it would violate the rules as it is a link to another forum. Anyone who would like the link let me know and I can pm/email it to you.

[BenBow]

Originally posted by Bowjunkie:
Benbow, insightful posts. Where I disagree is with your assessment of the bow hand fulcrum and virtual bottom limb length.

The static fulcrum (the balance point before we begin the draw) is the center of the bow.

Then during the draw, the dynamic fulcrum under the bow hand follows equilibrium, which is dictated by bow design, tiller, and our holds on bow and string. In my bows, the dynamic fulcrum stays between bow center and string fulcrum. It would only be below center if the bottom limb was much too strong and I was greatly heeling the grip. Not my idea of a balanced draw.

So mine moves slightly 'up' from bow center toward the string hand fulcrum, which are less than an inch apart, making the virtual bottom limb length longer at full draw than it was, not shorter.

How far it(dynamic fulcrum) slides in any particular setup, and whether or how much it changes the lengths of the virtual limbs/levers, depends on many factors, some already mentioned in this thread.

You can situate or reveal the position of the fulcrum, and virtual limb lengths, by placing something under the handle so that it creates a single point of contact, and move it around until the bow balances on it as it's drawn. If not where you want it, adjust limb strength. Of course, while pulling the string how it will be pulled when shot.

I respect your opinion but I rarely see anyone shooting with a straight wrist where the bow pivots. It's almost always held with a bent wrist which puts the pressure point an inch or so below center. Tillering from a pivot point is not natural nor common so tillering that way in my not so humble opinion isn't the best way.
UPDATE: after reading the last paragraph again it reaffirms my respect for your insight.

[Bowjunkie]

'Tillering from the pivot point'. If that is to mean... tillering by supporting the bow on the tree by the intended or actual dynamic fulcrum which will allow the bow to lean left or right, drawing from the spot on the string that the center of finger pressure will be, and then balancing the strength of the limbs so the bow sits level? I agree it's not common, but in my experience common isn't always right or best.

The bent wrist doesn't put the pressure point below center or anywhere else on its own. It's just one factor in the equation. The fulcrum's location could still be put where you want it by way of design, relative limb strengths, and how the string and handle is grasped.

For instance, I shoot with a bent wrist and my pressure point/fulcrum point is above bow center and handle center from the time I begin the draw, to anchor.

Easy enough to check one, stick something under there where you believe your dynamic fulcrum is, and draw it on the tree. You may or may not be surprised where the fulcrum actually is. I know I was at first.

Nothing but due respect from here too, bud.

Imagine two doors on the same wall.  Slam both doors shut at the exact same time and there's very little noise, vibration, etc.

Slam one shut, then the other.  There's more noise and more vibration on the wall.  

The ideal tiller is to have both doors (limbs) slam shut at the same time.  

There are so many variables it's "almost" impossible for a bowyer to get it right on a laminated bow unless the customer is there with him.  Pressure on the string, grip with more pressure on the web, heel, or middle of the hand.  How about nock location?

It's not unusual at all to find a negative tiller works better for you.  To my notion, a lot of folks would fair better with a negative tiller.

[Bowjunkie]

I agree, Jim. Unfortunately, folks are told to avoid negative tiller like the plague, and they do.

[BenBow]

Originally posted by Bowjunkie:
I agree, Jim. Unfortunately, folks are told to avoid negative tiller like the plague, and they do.

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