String Length & brace Height?

[Ray091]

Trying to learn how to properly set up & tune a bow and the the arrows. Right now only doing the bows, not the arrows.

Have 2 bows 1 is a sage samick take down amo 62" 40# & 2nd is an old bear kodiak hunter amo 60" 50#.

I have started with the samick amo 62" bow.

1st
Brace height: Went to lancaster archery and looked on their brace height chart & according to them:

AMO 60" Brace should be between 7 & 1/2" to 8 & 1/4"

AMO 62" Brace should be between 7 & 3/4" to 8 & 1/2"

Bought western archery AMO 62" recurve string 16 strand and AMO 60" recurve string 16 strand for each bow.

Measured the AMO 62" string and it was 59" long which brings up another question which I will mention after the brace height questions.

When I put the amo 62" string on the smaick amo 62" bow the brace height was a hair less than 7" so I took the string off and on 3 times for a total of 22 to 24 twists and the brace height is now at 7 & 5/8" still below the minimum that lancaster archery said it should be.

1st question: Can you put in to many twist that it creates a problem for the string or when you shoot an arrow?

2nd question: can to many twists create any other problems for a bow or a shooter.

3rd question: Can I keep adding twists until I am happy with the shooting results as far as brace height is concerned? I have not shot the bow since beginning to adjust both string length and brace height.

4th question: what is the relationship between string length & brace height as some people talk about length and others refer to brace height. Which one is done first and which one is done last during the fine tuning of the bow only?  Or am I all mixed up and need to start over and relearn what i am dong?

5th question: is the problem with western archery strings?

Sorry if question are dumb but thats where Im at right now.

Back to string length I know gen rule is 3" shorter than amo for long bows and 4" shorter than amo for recurves but I researched past posts on 3 forums including this one and found 1 guy who said it all changed a few years ago and guve out this confusing formula & stated bottom line it is now 3" shorter for both long bows and recurves but most bowyers and manufactures do their own thing.

Can Anyone straighten me out regarding this.

Appreciate any & all advise and/or instruction as you can tell by my questions I definitely need it.

Thank you.

[A.S.]

I will help you with string length.  You definitely need a 58" Actual String Length for your Sage.  If it were mine, I would twist the string that you currently have until you get the proper brace height then take it off and measure end to end.  You will be right in the 58" neighborhood.

Now find a string builder on here and have a good quality string built at the proper length. You and your bow will be much happier!

[Gator1]

Good advice

I will not order another string without measuring the string

4 inch on a recurve is a general rule.   I found out on two bows I should have went longer.

[katman]

I agree with A.S.(who could build you some very nice strings) you will need a shorter string, unfortunately not all follow AMO guides which is 3" shorter for BOTH longbow and recurve. Here is the published AMO standard information.

 http://www.outlab.it/doc/amostd.pdf

As far as to much twist I have read from other string builders if the string twists back on itself when taken off bow it had to much twist. The string acts to much like a spring then.

Are the strings you bought flemish twist or endless loop? If they are endless loop, they are not designed to have as much twist as a flemish twist string. Either way, like stated above, you need a shorter string.

I'm not sure what you are asking with question #4? Proper string length is a constant. Once you get a string of the right length, you will then be able to add or take out twists in the proper brace height range for the bow to get the brace height where you want it.

Bisch

[DanielB89]

I make all my sammick sage strings 3.5" shorter.  For the most part, I would bet that your Kodiak Magnum will do the same.  A major part of this is getting a string that, when settled, is 3.5" shorter, not starting out at 3.5" shorter, because then you'll be in the same boat.  

AMO is one of the biggest pains in the rear.  Some build their AMO off of 4" less, some 3". It's just easier to built an actual string length.  I can't tell you how many strings I've made over because someone ordered the wrong length.

[LBR]

I've helped set up more Sage bows than I can remember.  With a low-stretch material, measured under AMO specs, they have all gotten a 58.5" string.

AMO hasn't changed concerning string length since it's inception.  It's always been 3" shorter, longbow or recurve.  Actually the bow is supposed to be marked 3" longer than the string master (steel cable) that puts it at proper brace.

"1st question: Can you put in to many twist that it creates a problem for the string or when you shoot an arrow?"

You can, but it generally has to be extreme.

"2nd question: can to many twists create any other problems for a bow or a shooter."

Same as #1.

"3rd question: Can I keep adding twists until I am happy with the shooting results as far as brace height is concerned? I have not shot the bow since beginning to adjust both string length and brace height."

You can unless it's just way too long.


"4th question: what is the relationship between string length & brace height as some people talk about length and others refer to brace height. Which one is done first and which one is done last during the fine tuning of the bow only? Or am I all mixed up and need to start over and relearn what i am doing?"

Get the brace height right.  This may require getting the "wrong" string length.

"5th question: is the problem with western archery strings?"

I'm not familiar with those.  59" actual length is a 62" AMO string.  16 strands (I assume dacron) is overkill for most bows, and depending on the serving used will be too tight for most nocks.  More than likely whoever made the string is making them as ordered.  Lots of "factory" strings are like this, even on some expensive bows.

I've talked to several bowyers about marking their bows correctly according to AMO specs, trying to get them to mark their bows correctly or at least mark the bow's actual string length on it to avoid confusion like this.  Some mark their bows correctly, some won't.  They could save their customers a lot of frustration, never got a reasonable explanation (IMO) as to why they won't.

[Ray091]

TO: Bisich's question about the stings.

I don't know will have to do some research about flemish twist and endless loop as I couldn't tell the difference by looking at them and the 2 packages that where bought at sportsman warehouse only gives the amo & number of strands in the string.

I made an emotional decision with no research so I could try the bows right away, big mistake and 1st lesson learned.

Will contact some of the string makers on this forum and order strings in the near future.

[LBR]

Easy way to tell the difference.  Endless will have serving on the loops, Flemish won't.

[Ray091]

Based on above reply from LBR and looking on the internet I believe the western archery strings i got from sportsman warehouse are endless loops.

[reddogge]

You can do one of two things to get the exact measurement you need.

1. A friend of mine takes an old string and ties knots in it until the bow braces at the correct height and then measures it and orders the correct length.

2. Overtwist your string to the correct height and then measure it.

[Ray091]

Well I twisted the string on the amo 62 bow until the brace height is now 7 & 7/8 inches. Took the string off to measure and it is at exactly 58 inches in length. Did get 1 little kink when I took it off so put it back on and it has been on for a couple of days will take it off to see if the kink is gone.

I put so many twist in it just to get it to 7 & 7/8" which is just barley above the minimum per the Lancaster Archery chart that I figure if i want to make my bow as quite as i can for hunting and i have to do a bunch more twists say to get it to 8" or 8 & 3/8 inches and that is the point where it is the quietest I may be playing with fire.

So am thinking of ordering a string that is already at 58 inches then i won't have too many twists in it when I adjust the brace height.

Any opinions about this?

Will probably go with an endless loop just because it may be a little easier for me to start with and learn on, got this from all my research.  Thanks for all the help.

[A.S.]

Like I said before, 58" is the correct length for your bow.  If you buy a longer one, you will just have to add more twists like you are doing now.

Endless loop or Flemish shouldn't make any difference.

[LBR]

According to the several I've set up, 58" is at best going to put you on the high side of the brace unless the string hasn't been pre-stretched.

Flemish will normally allow you a little more adjustment, and normally will settle in a tad more than endless.

   

Took the string off to measure and it is at exactly 58 inches in length.  

Measuring per AMO specs is under a 100# load on 1/8" pegs.  Bet you a dollar against a doughnut that if you measured your string that way, you'd get 58.5" or a little longer.

[LBR]

Ok, just to be on the safe side (my memory isn't what it used to be, and it's never been great to begin with) I checked a Samick Sage I've had for a few years, that had a well shot-in string on it.  Forgot I had it--I have a couple of Samick Journey's that also get a string 3.5" shorter (60.5").

With the brace set at a hair over 7.5" (where this particular bow "likes" it--it's a light draw weight), the string measured just a hair under 59"  under a 102.5# load.  Twist it up to 58.5" and it would easily be braced at 7.75".

If further confirmation is needed I'll be happy to send pictures.  I don't know how to post them.

The string material is 20 strands of BCY-X.  Won't stretch much at all, nowhere near what the factory Dacron string will.

[elkhunter45]

I cant help you on the Sage, but I have had four 60" Kodiak Hunters in 50#. That is also the only bow I currently own. Bear suggest 8"-9" brace. Mine likes 8.5-8.75" brace height to get real quiet. I have the standard 56" 3 Rivers Flemish on it with Bow Hush and Hush Puppies. I am planning on trying a super duper custom string someday soon.

[A.S.]

Chad, I'm not trying to argue, but if you measure that string without the 100#s tension it will be very close to 58".  That is how the OP is measuring.

Sometimes we try to make this stuff more difficult than it is.

[LBR]

With a string twisted to the point it's kinking, no way to get an accurate measurement without putting a load on it.

AMO is the only standard we have, so that's what I stick to. Otherwise it's a crap shoot.

A 20 strand BCY-X string, without excessive twists, is going to measure very close to the same with or without the 100# load.  It doesn't stretch or contract like the O.P.'s dacron string.

[LBR]

For clarity's sake, I'm not trying to argue either.  The point being is a dacron string with excessive twist that measures 58" off the bow is going to be a lot different than 58" BCY-X string with a standard twist measured off the bow--once they are put back on the bow.  

It's confusing enough when bowyers/companies don't mark bows correctly according to AMO specs.  I try to do my best to put out accurate information with as few variables as possible.  That's why I make it a point to mention the measurement was taken per AMO specs.

[Ray091]

So should I consider starting  with a 58" for the Samick Sage AMO 62" bow string and presume my adjustments will be up from there
as I test shoot it to find the quiet sweet spot?

Also I am still looking for more info on brace heights but so far Lancaster Archery is the only chart I have found and as elkhunter45  stated that all 4 of his amo 60" Kodiak Hunter bows had sweet spots of 8" to 9" which is much higher than the chart I saw at Lancaster, makes me ask does this happen very often that someone prefers a brace height much higher than what I am using as a general rule?

Thanks again for all the help. Even though my questions aren't very smart I am beginning to learn a lot more about strings and brace heights.