Heavy arrows and speed

[Chris Iversen]

Hi guys!

Before my question, I want to give a shout out to Tuffheads and Vintage Archery. Being in Canada, we often have to deal with expensive shipping and long waits for things we order online from the US. I made a couple of orders from Vintage Archery this month, and received my orders quickly and for reasonable shipping cost. I stumbled on them as they are a sponsor here on TradGang, and I'm glad I did. Now for my question:

I am experimenting with EFOC, and I think I have found a hunting arrow recipe that works well for me, but I am concerned about arrow speed because the arrow is so heavy. I shoot a relatively light recurve (45# at my draw weight). My arrows are GT Trad 400's with 350 grains up front. This is giving me about a 670 grain arrow (15.4 GPP and 25.8% EFOC). It bareshafts great (maybe slightly weak), and hits HARD. I love it. However, there is a little voice in my head that keeps saying it's too heavy for my light draw weight, even though Dr. Ashby's studies suggest a 650 grain arrow at my draw weight. What do you guys think? I'm inclined to go with it as they are flying great, but I am interested in the opinions of hunters with more experience than me.This is with a 225 grain field point, 125 grain glue on adapter, and regular insert. Lighter combinations didn't bareshaft as well (I bought a test kit from Vintage Archery). I plan on using a 225 grain Tuffhead or 235 grain Grizzly come hunting season, but haven't tried a broadhead yet.Thoughts?

[JohnV]

If it flies good and you are okay with the trajectory don't worry about it.

[crazynate]

I have played around with heavy tips like that but I have noticed for hunting whitetails I seem to do just fine with arrow weights around 500-550 max for my 46# bows. I have gotten plenty of pass thrus. I don't feel confident shooting at a deer at 20 yards with an arrow flying around 145fps which is what happens to me when I shout 600+ grain arrows. So there is good and bad in my opinion. If you keep your shots under 15 yards stick with the heavier weights.

More weight is good! More FOC is good! As long as you can aim it and shoot it well, carry on.

Bisch

[Michael Arnette]

One of my good buddies has used a similar setup for years with good success.

[DarrinG]

What game are you planning on hunting? If it's deer, they are not thick-skinned, heavy boned game. I'd much rather have a straight-shooting, well flying arrow/head that is tuned right (for all momentum going straight and not fishtailing and wobbling in flight loosing energy) than to base it all upon arrow weight. Sure it has some concerns but deer are not thick-skinned, heavy boned critters and a good hunting weight arrow and a sharp broadhead that's tuned well and right will blow thru most American game.

[Terry Green]

It all depends on what and where you are hunting... I've been in camp many times and warn people about overly heavy arrows at this particular location... while those that heeded the warning where  retrieving game....those that did not wear only retrieving arrows ... because the time their Arrow got there the animal they were shooting at had been in Oklahoma for 2 weeks.

If you are shooting deer and considering that you are using Tuffheads, that much weight may not be needed.  I have no trouble getting pass through with 50 to 55 pound longbows at a 26" draw shooting arrows from 450 to 525 grains using 3 to 1 heads.  I hunt on the ground so my shots range from 18 to over 30 yards.  However, if you are reaching out that far and these are not loggy  at the range that you will be hunting, no problem, use them.

[Charlie Lamb]

Personally I think it's too much. I believe your accuracy will be better with a lighter set up. You're already using a great penetrating design... don't overthink it.

[Shadowhnter]

The last 2 years, Ive killed deer with a heavier set up then that. 2 seasons ago a nice P&Y buck, 45lb bow, 690 gr arrow perfect hit 17 yards.

Last season I took a large mature doe at 15 yards, with a 45lb bow, 825gr arrow, entered perfectly, but she turned slightly causing the arrow to come out back just a little. However, she was already on pins and needles and had made me several minutes prior to my shot. Based on past experiances even with much faster bows, her knowing I was there prior to the shot, was the real factor in her moving upon the shot. That arrow was MUCH heavier and slower then yours....

Both my boys that had never killed deer before scored this last season as well, with similar set ups. 45lb bow, 805 gr arrow, nice buck at 13 yards, and 45lb bow, 17 yards, perfect hit on very large mature doe, 670 gr arrow.....

I think you are plenty safe.

[mec lineman]

I agree, 450- 550 gr. arrows are plenty for most game

An area belligerent know it all, said to my wife while she was coming to get me with her bloody arrow in hand, "I shoot an x bow with x00s weight arrows with an x long draw and I don't get pass throughs and you don't either."  He was no help that day, a compound hunter field dressed her deer, went back to my van got the cart and hauled her deer out.  Sometime later I saw the super dude shoot his heavy recurve, he was totally over bowed, his log heavy arrows flew like logs and he could not hit the broad side of anything. There is a case for heavy bows and heavy arrows, but it needs to be a package deal that works for the shooter.  I have shot lots of deer with wood arrows, a couple with loaded fiberglass arrows that were real heavy out of heavy longbows, but I must say a whitetail does not require that.  Getting an arrow to fly nice and straight behind the broadhead is important for both penetration and accuracy. With Tuffheads I would consider finding which cedar arrow spine would work with those heads, before going way heavy with an extra front loaded carbon arrow.  And yes, I got even with the compounder as well.  He is no longer a compounder.

[charles m]

I remember the story told by Ron LaClair about someone that killed an American Bison with a 400 grain Arrow out of the 50s pound bow with a 4 blade Broadhead.

If you can't kill a whitetail with a 50 pound bow and a 500 grain Arrow you've got way more problems than arrow weight.

[moebow]

OK, can't hold back anymore.
The Ashby report is a great study in arrow dynamics and performance! And definitely has it's place, BUT...

BUT!!  I believe that many take it too far and end up with results that don't necessarily make much sense.  Typical "Western" thinking, "More is better."  Some list point weights that are NEARLY a decent arrow's total weight.

An anvil of 200 pounds will make a GREAT UEFOC arrow point (nearly a 100% FOC) but only if shot straight down out of a 150 foot high tree stand.

I believe that most North American archers would see better results with the old 10 grains per pound (or thereabouts) arrow with about 14% FOC. PLUS they will find easier tuning, better arrow speed and excellent penetration and easier materials selection.

Over the years, ABOUT 10 grains per pound has been proven VERY effective AND a good trade off on arrow mass (penetration) AND arrow speed.

Again, Just MY opinion, but I think MOST shooters make it too hard and just based on an "understanding or miss understanding"  of the Ashby report.

Arne

[DarrinG]

Originally posted by moebow:
OK, can't hold back anymore.
The Ashby report is a great study in arrow dynamics and performance! And definitely has it's place, BUT...

BUT!!  I believe that many take it too far and end up with results that don't necessarily make much sense.  Typical "Western" thinking, "More is better."  Some list point weights that are NEARLY a decent arrow's total weight.

^^^
This!

I also think Ashby's report/studies is valid in some settings. But we're not talking thick-skinned, heavy-boned animals in America. I think most deer hunters would be better set with a "middle of the road" arrow weight. 9-10 gpi of arrow for the poundage and most importantly, get it tuned right. A straight flying arrow will penetrate better, shoot more accurate and a mid-road weight arrow will be more forgiving of a misjudge of range. You can still get enough weight to be a valid hunting arrow without having to lob a shot like a rainbow. I am currently shooting total arrow weight of 448 grains, 9.95 grains per pound out of a 45# recurve. I get a pretty flat-shooting setup and penetration is no problem.

I make wood arrows for a number of guys, I offered aluminum but they want wood, When i am shooting for 125 to 145 grain head weights, as long as know the bow and see them shoot I hit it right the first time, with the help of a few test shots. I have a bunch of 190 ribtecs, a couple really like the looks of the longer bigger head, but it is a curve ball.  The shooting form requires more consistency to make certain that I get just right spine, the results with a harder than average release that the arrow will act softer than the same with a 145 grain head on its appropriate shaft. As in many cases folks lose a little draw when shooting at game or from tree stands, the extra heavy head that is set up for a longer draw, seems to act stiffer with the softer shot than one with a lighter head.  I have some weight forward carbons the tapered kind.  They shoot out of only one of my bows, I drop to a slightly lower weight bow they act way too stiff, then out of a slightly heavier bow they act way to soft. I have wood arrows that fly online with all of those same bows. I am not a carbon arrow expert by any means, but they do seem to be a little more finicky for cast energy than woods.  My concern for the OP is that in a real hunting situation, he may find that his arrows will act very stiff.  Stuff happens when taking real hunting shots, it is good to have a little lee way.

[bowcrazybrad]

There is a really good artice in the latest Trad. Bowhunter mag. These two guys have killed 67 elk with 450 to 500 grain arrows and 52 to 57 pound recurves and r@d longbows.They also use trocar tip replaceable blade broadheads.I remember Dale Dye telling me he used arrows around 8 grains per pound also. Bottom line is good arrow flight and a scary sharp broadhead =good penetration and dead critters regardless.

[Chris Iversen]

Very interesting. Thanks guys! What precipitated all this, was my arrows were over spined with 125 grain tips. The pro shop talked me into cutting them down to 31 inches when I bought them. I was reluctant, but according to the spine chart they used, at my draw weight, full length should be 340 spine. Well, the 400's were too stiff at 31 inches and 125 grain tips.

Ashby's studies intrigued me, but I told myself to stop overthinking things and just do it. However, I got tired of struggling with over spined arrows, so  I decided to give it a try. In my backyard, maximum 18 or 19 yards, the heavy arrows, with 350 grains up front, work fine and fly great, right on target (maybe a little stiff if I don't get my back tension right locked out every time, like someone suggested a couple posts up). I had a test kit, so I bare shaft experimented from about 225 grains up front, but the bare shafts flew best when I got up to 350. Yes, my arrows are slower, which is some of my concern, and why I have posted this question. I went to the range last night, and up to 20 yards, my groups are pretty consistently on target and within about a 6-8 inch circle. 30 yards a little wider, but still not bad. 40 yards they were dropping a little early on me, and I really noticed the big arc in trajectory but right-lefts were still pretty good. One of the pros at the range is a real advocate of arrows hitting harder on a downward trajectory. And he liked the arrow recipe for hunting. I found I am way more consistent with the high FOC than I was with the more standard 125 grains up front (which gave me a 470 grain arrow) and 13-14% FOC. Ethically, I would never take a shot at a deer more than 20 yards away, so I think I will go with this. However, I would still like to try a 500 or 600 spine arrow with the same FOC, but lighter weight, for longer shots I might encounter at fun 3D shoots. But that will have to wait until I can afford another set of arrows.

[Shadowhnter]

Im really curious as to how many nay sayers on this subject, have actually tested 650-800gr arrows on live deer with a 45lb bow.....and how many are just saying "no go" without a single shred of experiance with it.

[mec lineman]

Most of the nay Sayers above did not just get into traditional archery. Of course an 800 gr. arrow is going to perform well on a white tail deer. But so will a 450 grain arrow and YES I have proof. I personally don't care what grain arrow some one shoots,but I joined this forum to occasionally give my opinion based on my experience.